Posted by Diarmuid/Graatch on October 15, 1999 at 04:40:17:
In Reply to: Nitpicking (but it's an important nit) posted by Nepenthe on October 14, 1999 at 23:33:23:
> > Sure, anyone can go get a mob charmie, > That's where you're wrong, and I think it strikes to the heart of the main point you seem to be missing. Anyone can go get a mob charmie. . . except Battle. Anyone can quaff a potion of return when the excrement hits the fan. . .except Battle. Anyone can quaff a potion of fly to get up to Arial City in a pinch. . .except Battle. Anyone can wear one of the hundreds of objects in Thera that do special things in combat (hammer pendants, embossed rings, etc) . . .except Battle. > There's an awful lot Battle can't do that the whole rest of CF can. Their powers are, in part, intended to make up for that. All of that, all of the various things that a battlerager cannot do, is irrelevant to the issue. The existence of cabal powers has all sorts of reasons, justifications, bases, etc. Why ragers have powers, why masters have powers, any of that, is not the point. That's a given. And as you and Twist have said before, it is often a see-saw. Give one side deathblow. Give the other side transform to deal with it. Give one side blind. Give the other trusight that can cure blindness. Etc. Tit for tat so to speak. None of that deals with the questions we are all talking about. *Whatever* the rager powers are, whether they are good bad or indifferent, (and this goes for any cabal, any power really), no single power should really do what the current rager powers do. And yes, you have played infinitely more than I have, you've coded it, you've watched I'm sure, and will say what you will say. But I just went through it myself, and call it anecdotal, call it imcomplete, but the fact remains, I specifically atempted every single invoker spell and every single one was baned. And when their bane dropped, they just re-baned, in combat. It doesn't matter that ragers cant do all the things you said. The question is, can other classes deal with a rager? Sure, it shouldn't be a cakewalk for every class. It should be harder or easier for some. But every class should be able, on its own, with just the skill/spells coded for that class, to in some wayharm their foe. That is not the case now. That's all I am saying. And that's the fact. I tried. I have logs and logs of me trying every spell from the first tier to the last, from dispel to faerie fire, from charge weapon to Pillar, from tsunami to geyser, etc. I am not making it up when I say not once, on an area spell baning rager, did the spell go through, when the rager was of equal or greater level -- i.e. both heros. Not once. > I'm trying hard to be civil and not jump down your throat here, Diarmuid, because I really don't think you're a dumb guy. What you are, at least with respect to CF in my opinion, is egocentric as all hell. You seem to have a very difficult time looking beyond the scope of whatever you're playing at the time and seeing things fairly from the other guy's side. I don't have the luxury of switching my class any time I want, like you do. And I am a firm believer in not speaking out on things for which you have no knolwdge, no experience. So, whenI play a class, when I have a handle on it, I speak out about it, be it good or bad. And given some of the events of the past where comments I have made were later adopted in some for or other, a few months later, I will continue to do it. (And this is not to say that my comments alone caused anything. I was often one of many making the same observations when problems arose.) And I'll add here that I am also generally one of the first to comment on good things, as well, usually in a note to the Immortals, though sometimes here on the forum. I remember specifically saying how cool and well done I thought the assassins were when they went in, and I saw you in Asgaard. (As Scaurus.) I listened to you complain for a long time about bearcharge over the cabal channel, but I swear if you'd somehow played a bearcharge-happy ranger for a few hours you'd quickly see holes in it that you didn't while locked into the Master invoker perspective. I'm surprised you bring that up. Two other current Imms have spoken to me and told me it has since been changed, though not necessarily due to anything I say or wrote. Again, I don't think I was the only one to comment on it. And, of course, as usual, some "in the know" persons thought to roll up a cloud giant ranger before the changes went in, because they knew they would be getting this power in a short while and wanted to abuse it. But I digress. I listened to you complain everytime you got assassinated, claiming it was a total luck skill and there was nothing you could do, but I promise you if you made an assassin and tried to assassinate other players you'd have a bag full of assassination countertactics in a few hours (if you kept your eyes open) simply because other players would take certain actions that made it harder or impossible for you to do so without even meaning to thwart you. That's sorta funny. I was only assassinated twice. Ever, and once I was totally naked and had just unghosted. And I happen to have seen the log from the second time and I didn't complain bitterly, rather I joked saying it was something against which you cannot turn and fight, you just die. I believe I even gave one of the famous ":P" signs, or a *smile*. And I did play an assassin. I didn't hero him, but I rolled him up and levelled up to assassinate exactly so I would see/learn what you are referring to. I am not going to reveal all of that here, but if you wish me to prove it by explaining some of the things we are referring to, I am happy to speak to you in private, since of course you already know all of it, having coded much of it. I mean that sincerely, there is no sarcasm here. I've listened to you complain about spellbane and claim it's nearly totally effective, but I still see Battle die every day solely to invoker's area spells. If you say so, I'll believe you. Let me ask a few questions though: Was the invoker much higher in level than the rager? Was it *ever* between an invoker and rager of equal rank? Was the rager in fact bloodthirsted? I know I personally have never had a spell go through -- not for lack of trying. I also know that at least three other invokers told me exactly the same thing with them, in game. That's four people. Again, I didn't code it, but I lived it and there you have it. When you're pissed about something, take a deep breath, relax, and try hard to see it from the other side. That's all I'm asking. I do try to think of it from the other side. The very, very first time I ever spoke about spellbane and all this rager stuff I said that I am not against ragers getting some ups in power -- though in the last four years I've been here they have had their times of power just like every other cabal, arguing that they dont really need an increase in power, but that's not the issue here -- and I made suggestions. Another thing I try to do by the way. I rarely, if ever, just say what is wrong and leave it at that. I make suggestions for change. In this instance I initially said that perhaps make the area spellbane much less effective and icnrease the effectiveness of direct spellbane. I don't have the code, but if spellbane (before all these changes) worked at, say, 60%, then make it 80 and make this new area spellbane 20%. *shrug* The numbers dont matter so much here, but you get the idea. > As an interesting aside to anyone else who read through that, we (the immortals) still hear complaints from players who are deeply convinced we despise Battle and are intentionally setting them up to be weak and lose. That is correct and I sympathize with you and the rest in that regard. But there are many who don't get what they want because what they want is not in line with the philosophy of the mud. For example, lots of the level sitters (mid 20s and 30s) who just want to pk for 250 hours. And all the shit players who don't roleplay, who in group say shit like "Damn, just 23 exp to level, I can't believe that mob didn't do it for me" and the various other things that those who dont give a shit about rp do. But you aren't _trying_ to please those people. At least you shouldn't be. And to be honest, I think that anyone who is playing a rager now and is saying they dont get enough power is just someone out to be on the pk list and could give a shit about roleplaying. Which, given how alot of the battleragers have been acting recently, doesn't surprise me. Let me end this by saying I realize it's long and so thank you for reading it all, if you did. Also, I know that you, nepenthe, and the other higher imms take the game very seriously, and spend many, many hours on it. And because of that, there is a tendancy to take criticisms of the game personally. I am not doing that and I trust you do not feel personally insulted or attacked. Separate discussions of the game and with you all. I have problems, personally, with some of the Immortal staff. That has absolutely nothing to do with discsussions/commentary on features of the game, such as this. I hope you realize that. And for the rest of you that are going to look at that and start yelling kiss-ass, fuck you. I burned plenty of imm bridges and having had two heroimms deleted, I no longer feel any need to cajole for imm favor. Most of them reward good roleplaying now matter who it is, whether they like you or not, and as long as that continues, I am satisfied.
> And so on. I haven't even mentioned some of the best stuff here yet, including a few things that don't even require friends or extensive pregathering of objects.
As am I. And I appreciate it.
> There's no pleasing everyone.