Posted by Pico(IMM) on December 10, 1999 at 19:51:05:
In Reply to: THE LIGHT posted by widowson on December 10, 1999 at 12:42:58:
> Pacifism is an unrealistic ideology. > Though we’d all like a world totally devoid of violence, there are enough people like Hitler, Stalin, Manson, and Dalmer in this world to ensure the continued survival of armies and police forces. In essence, what I’m saying is that you can’t reason with everyone, especially evil people. You can’t be meek and passive before evil since the only reason evil obeys Laws and moral codes is fear of punishment. True, the world (RL or CF) will never be devoid As for evil only obeying laws due to fear of > For a RL example, look at the appeasement strategy that the Allies employed with Germany prior to WW2. By giving the Nazis what they wanted, this just encouraged them to seek more and take advantage of the Allies generosity. Eventually, when WW2 started, the Allies, though they were morally in the right, had to resort to brutal, total, unrestrained warfare to defeat the evil, genocidal empires of Germany and Japan. Do you mean to say that evils live more by the > Respectfully, the Imms have over-emphasized the pacifistic nature of good. While compassion and generosity are all well and good, hardcore evil needs to be fought, not pampered and cuddled. This is why Knights failed, since their Honor allowed themselves to be taken advantage of, and this is why Dawn is considered to be such a non-factor as a force against evil. Not only does it have pacifistic leanings but its powers are laughably poor, some would say the worse of any cabal next to troupe. How can they aid the light if they can’t even stay alive? I personally don't think we've overempasized > Evil flourishes in Thera because it has absolutely nothing to fear. You’re not going to stop that Necro from ranking on balator orphans by asking him nicely, you have to put the fear of retribution and judgement into him. Dawn can take all the moral high ground it wants, but that won’t stop those 6 Imperial Heroes or that Scarabite Lich from raping Thera at will. Evil has almost always flourished in Thera. > Currently, by making pacifism the only viable option for a lightwalking cabal, with the Marans being ineffectual because of no organization/powers, the light is perpetually weakened and it’s RP stagnated. It should not come as that much of a surprise that people are more inclined to roll up evil and neutral characters. This point was brought up before, so I'll just > Thera needs a crusade, inquisition, Maran cabal or some sort of army of the light that allows lightwalkers to fight evil. Compassion and pacifism are nice, but not good in each, every, and all situations. Aside from the word "needs" I wouldn't mind
of violence, but after that you are incorrect.
You seem to be one who thinks that law & order
is inherently a morally good institution and
that all evil must be anarchic. In fact you
can reason with evil people. If someone is
mugging a helpless old lady for her $50 and
I offer the hoodlum $500, in most cases he'll
stop. Yes, Jeffrey Dalmer most likely would
have been difficult to reason with, but that
is lunacy (i.e., irrationality -- unReason),
not evilness. One just needs to reason with
an evil person differently since they have
different goals and priorities.
punishment (you mystify my about adhering to
moral codes due to fear since, by definition
evils do not follow moral codes), they follow
laws for almost the same reason goods do. The
difference being good follow laws because they
believe goodness is the general result of them
and evil follow them because they believe evilness
(i.e., their gain) is the result. Both will
seek to break the laws in consideration of
fear of punishment -- the good perhaps trying
to right a wrong (e.g., vigilanteism) or evil
trying to gain a bit more from it (e.g., cost/
benefit analysis). Good and evil recognize
the laws and consider punishment in much the
same way, just their goals are different.
code of the Iron Fist than goods? Maybe you're
right, maybe you're wrong. I guess it depends
if you are out of the mold of Theodore Roosevelt
or Mohandas Ghandi.
the passive nature of goodness in Thera. Are
cabals the only way roles are defined? I would
submit to you that Dawn has done one of the
best services to the game by emphasizing that
killing isn't the only way to get your viewpoint
across to others, *especially* as a good-aligned
character. Everyone already knows that killing
the other side is one way, good-aligns should
have a beacon to show them their morality
encompasses more than being on one side of a
giant capture-the-flag game of PK totals.
Why? I think the answer is fairly simple --
it's easier to play an evil character (or
especially a neutral-aligned character that
tends toward evil) than it is to play a good
aligned character. No PK restrictions, no
need to worry about going all-out for the
best set of eq you can get, can kill any mob
for exp, don't have to go out of your way
to help people, etc., etc.
mention for the sake of adding my vote to it:
cabals are not the only "viable" roles in CF.
Yes, they have some benefits, but the notion
that cabals are the end-all, be-all of the
game is narrow-sighted. If a cb and some
extra powers are the essence of fun and balance
in the game, I would submit that CF is indeed
out of whack.
seeing a holy war, a crusade, a group who
decides evil needs to be actively and
relentlessly cleansed from Thera. However,
the supposition that a cabal is necessary for
this is flawed.