Alot of what you say is true, but...

Alot of what you say is true, but...:
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Posted by Szysthysstix on January 2, 2000 at 11:26:43:

In Reply to: Reasons not to be an arbiter and my departure. posted by Thrakk on January 2, 2000 at 006:31:19:

I've played arbiters, including elders and lords, so I have some idea what I'm talking about. I respond to each of your paragraphs thrakk.

> 1) It is very difficult to rank. When you finally find a couple of people who arent criminals to group with, chances are someone will committ a crime and you will be forced to end your learning because you have to go investigate.

True.

> 2) You are generally heavily outnumbered.
> Very few people want to be arbiters and those who do usually change their minds and delete or get kicked out around rank 30. There have been less than TEN new heroes in arbiter over the past year. How many have other cabals each had? 100?

True, although there are plenty of people, especially masters or empire who are willing to beef up your power by being deputies. Arbiters are structured as they are with the knowledge that a chunk of the population can become a temporary arbiter. I don't think people take enough advantage of this. I know some of the reasons why, but that's not the real topic here.

> 3) You cant kill creatures in town. No ranking on guards, shoppies, etc. No killing the mobs in Seantryn for their sweet eq.

Actually, unless things have changed in the last four weeks, you can still summon and kill in town and level that way. You just cant kill indigenous mobs, like the shoppies or guards. But you can summon stormies or whatever and kill them all you want, as long as you don't make much noise.

> 4) You must fight other cabals the same way the U.S. fought in Viet Nam... one hand tied behind your back. Example: Ragers take the book, you finally find that rare occassion when you have a shot at getting it back but thats all you can do. You arent allowed to take their head. I remember about a year ago when Saagkri was Lord and the Sylvans were just butchering arbiters left and right.. hell, sylvans practically moved into the cities.. kinda like what they are doing now but thats another story. Anyway, the few times we got an edge over them they would just flee back into the woods and camo. Saagkri wanted to take the sapling and he posted a note saying to do so. Some spineless immortal told him to remove the note or else. Sigh.

True, but how relevant is this really? You don't have the people to guard - you yourself just said there are not nearly enough arbiters. So what would having the theoretical ability to raid cabals other than entropoy do for you? YOu wouldn't really deprive them of their powers for long and you can't flag them if they just come to retrieve. Yeah, you'd get the one minute feeling of satisfaction when you see "The Destructor is DEAD! The bloody head of a magician falls into your hands," but that's about it, and is that really worth anything? Not really.

> 5) Arbiter powers are a joke. You cant flag people in combat or manacle them and guards are weak.. practically useless against anyone in your range.

I've always thought arbiters should be able to manacle in combat. And I don't think ragers with bloodthirst should be able to pretty much negate manacles. Manacles are just about the only real offensive power and harmful power (other than the wanted flag itself, but that's another story) that arbiters have, and people can actually choose to be subject to them or not by committing a crime or not, so manacles really should be harsh. As for guards, they are your level and they are giants with giant resist. What do you want? You can get them hasted, you can get them spelled up, etc. They aren't supposed to be ubermobs, they are supposed to take the brunt of the criminal while YOU do your job.

The one thing I'd change about guards, and I don't know if it's possible, is that they often don't attack the criminal for a rather long duration. You can be standing in the same room with a criminal and the guards wont attack. The crimnal just walks away or attacks you or whatever. Guards don't react nearly fast enough.

> 6) Astein is an egotistical maniac who twists the truth into something that isnt. I remember someone asking me for my approval to join arbiter. I told him I had no power to induct him. Then he tells me Jaldean told him to get two arbiters' approvals before he would consider letting him join. So, I started asking him questions and he answered poorly. So, I told him to go to Seantryn motrin and do some research as to why he felt it should be a protected city. Next thing I know Astein is threatening to kick me out for giving out a "quest". Gimmee a fucking break.. the guy came to ME and asked for my approval and thats how I decided he could get it.

I won't comment, I wasn't there. The Astein I know is a good guy as a person, but remember his character is a dick. The question though is whether running a cabal is more ic or ooc. I don't think enough people realize the ooc consequences of their actions. But that's again for another day.

> 7) There is rarely any mortal leadership and even when there are, the arbiter immortals think they have to micro-manage everything. I remember telling Astein I was going to give an interview and could he sit in? I figure it would be good practice for me seeing how I was going to ask to be Lord. Well, Astein FREAKS out once again threatening me and telling me this is my last chance. God forbid someone take a little initiative and show some leadership in a cabal that has long since been the whipping boy of thera.

Can't comment, don't know.

> 8) Jaldean is a hypocrite who will find a stupid reason to kick you out if you dont kiss his ass. There are many, many tiny rules which arbiter must follow. Example, stay vis when handing arbiter business, dont go into other guilds unless for business, make sure you tell people why they are flagged.. things like this. So, basically these rules are broken on a daily basis either by accident or carelessness or whatever. Every now and then someone will get yelled at for going into a guild or will be asked by immortal if you properly explained to the criminal why he was flagged. This protocol is all layed out on the pillar in the hall. Well, I flagged a guy the other day after getting two non-biased, lawful witnesses. The person I flagged was someone who I had already caught lying in the past and saw no reason to argue with him again before I flagged him. Well, check this out... Jaldean (who I have never gotten along with), kicks me out for not following rule 4 about listening to both sides. What a crock of shit.

Well it sounds like what you are describing was the incident you flagged me, and you know what? Jaldean was right. I've got no sympathy for you here. As an assassin I could see hidden and invis there and unless there was some duo or camo person there (and I'm pretty sure there wasn't as I'll explain later) there was only one person there other than me and the guy I attacked. That was RAsher. And he was on the other side of town, he saw nothing.
I happened to return to new thalos when you yelled "Did anyone hear Szysthysstix attack someone?" Nobody responded out loud, although sure they could have talked to you in tells. But I stuck around and nobody vis'd and nobody spoke. There wasn't any possible way for you to have any real witnesses. Only one person, and that was someone who heard a yell. And you are NEVER supposed to flag based just on that since yells are obviously fake-able. You weren't there to hear it with vigilance. But all of a sudden ten minutes later I'm flagged, and you hand't even asked me question one. You fucked up, plain and simple.

> SO, join arbiter, lose 20 lives sitting in town trying to keep order, get put on trial constantly by your own immortals (dont ever expect any support from them), then get kicked out. Ill tell you right now I have never felt so betrayed in my entire life. I played Thrakk straight up. There wasnt a crooked bone in his body and tried like hell to give everyone a fair shake. I spent time with younger arbiters teachin em a few tricks, I spent time trying to rebuild the relationship between empire and arbiter and master and arbiter.. man, I was devoted and this is what I got. Ill never play another arbiter again.. not so long as jaldean and astein are there.

To be honest, I think most of the blame should be placed with Bria. She runs the cabal, sets the tone and orders astein and jaldean to behave as they do with respect to the cabal. If Bria weren't so harsh, so pig-headed, they likely wouldn't be. But she is, so they are. As for you not having a crooked bone in your body, that's as may be, but it doesn't mean you didn't make mistakes, and I know you did. Sorry, but it's true.

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Comments:	> I've played arbiters, including elders and lords, so I have some idea what I'm talking about. I respond to each of your paragraphs thrakk. > > 1) It is very difficult to rank. When you finally find a couple of people who arent criminals to group with, chances are someone will committ a crime and you will be forced to end your learning because you have to go investigate. > True. > > 2) You are generally heavily outnumbered. > > Very few people want to be arbiters and those who do usually change their minds and delete or get kicked out around rank 30. There have been less than TEN new heroes in arbiter over the past year. How many have other cabals each had? 100? > True, although there are plenty of people, especially masters or empire who are willing to beef up your power by being deputies. Arbiters are structured as they are with the knowledge that a chunk of the population can become a temporary arbiter. I don't think people take enough advantage of this. I know some of the reasons why, but that's not the real topic here. > > 3) You cant kill creatures in town. No ranking on guards, shoppies, etc. No killing the mobs in Seantryn for their sweet eq. > Actually, unless things have changed in the last four weeks, you can still summon and kill in town and level that way. You just cant kill indigenous mobs, like the shoppies or guards. But you can summon stormies or whatever and kill them all you want, as long as you don't make much noise. > > 4) You must fight other cabals the same way the U.S. fought in Viet Nam... one hand tied behind your back. Example: Ragers take the book, you finally find that rare occassion when you have a shot at getting it back but thats all you can do. You arent allowed to take their head. I remember about a year ago when Saagkri was Lord and the Sylvans were just butchering arbiters left and right.. hell, sylvans practically moved into the cities.. kinda like what they are doing now but thats another story. Anyway, the few times we got an edge over them they would just flee back into the woods and camo. Saagkri wanted to take the sapling and he posted a note saying to do so. Some spineless immortal told him to remove the note or else. Sigh. > True, but how relevant is this really? You don't have the people to guard - you yourself just said there are not nearly enough arbiters. So what would having the theoretical ability to raid cabals other than entropoy do for you? YOu wouldn't really deprive them of their powers for long and you can't flag them if they just come to retrieve. Yeah, you'd get the one minute feeling of satisfaction when you see "The Destructor is DEAD! The bloody head of a magician falls into your hands," but that's about it, and is that really worth anything? Not really. > > 5) Arbiter powers are a joke. You cant flag people in combat or manacle them and guards are weak.. practically useless against anyone in your range. > I've always thought arbiters should be able to manacle in combat. And I don't think ragers with bloodthirst should be able to pretty much negate manacles. Manacles are just about the only real offensive power and harmful power (other than the wanted flag itself, but that's another story) that arbiters have, and people can actually choose to be subject to them or not by committing a crime or not, so manacles really should be harsh. As for guards, they are your level and they are giants with giant resist. What do you want? You can get them hasted, you can get them spelled up, etc. They aren't supposed to be ubermobs, they are supposed to take the brunt of the criminal while YOU do your job. > The one thing I'd change about guards, and I don't know if it's possible, is that they often don't attack the criminal for a rather long duration. You can be standing in the same room with a criminal and the guards wont attack. The crimnal just walks away or attacks you or whatever. Guards don't react nearly fast enough. > > 6) Astein is an egotistical maniac who twists the truth into something that isnt. I remember someone asking me for my approval to join arbiter. I told him I had no power to induct him. Then he tells me Jaldean told him to get two arbiters' approvals before he would consider letting him join. So, I started asking him questions and he answered poorly. So, I told him to go to Seantryn motrin and do some research as to why he felt it should be a protected city. Next thing I know Astein is threatening to kick me out for giving out a "quest". Gimmee a fucking break.. the guy came to ME and asked for my approval and thats how I decided he could get it. > I won't comment, I wasn't there. The Astein I know is a good guy as a person, but remember his character is a dick. The question though is whether running a cabal is more ic or ooc. I don't think enough people realize the ooc consequences of their actions. But that's again for another day. > > 7) There is rarely any mortal leadership and even when there are, the arbiter immortals think they have to micro-manage everything. I remember telling Astein I was going to give an interview and could he sit in? I figure it would be good practice for me seeing how I was going to ask to be Lord. Well, Astein FREAKS out once again threatening me and telling me this is my last chance. God forbid someone take a little initiative and show some leadership in a cabal that has long since been the whipping boy of thera. > Can't comment, don't know. > > 8) Jaldean is a hypocrite who will find a stupid reason to kick you out if you dont kiss his ass. There are many, many tiny rules which arbiter must follow. Example, stay vis when handing arbiter business, dont go into other guilds unless for business, make sure you tell people why they are flagged.. things like this. So, basically these rules are broken on a daily basis either by accident or carelessness or whatever. Every now and then someone will get yelled at for going into a guild or will be asked by immortal if you properly explained to the criminal why he was flagged. This protocol is all layed out on the pillar in the hall. Well, I flagged a guy the other day after getting two non-biased, lawful witnesses. The person I flagged was someone who I had already caught lying in the past and saw no reason to argue with him again before I flagged him. Well, check this out... Jaldean (who I have never gotten along with), kicks me out for not following rule 4 about listening to both sides. What a crock of shit. > Well it sounds like what you are describing was the incident you flagged me, and you know what? Jaldean was right. I've got no sympathy for you here. As an assassin I could see hidden and invis there and unless there was some duo or camo person there (and I'm pretty sure there wasn't as I'll explain later) there was only one person there other than me and the guy I attacked. That was RAsher. And he was on the other side of town, he saw nothing. > I happened to return to new thalos when you yelled "Did anyone hear Szysthysstix attack someone?" Nobody responded out loud, although sure they could have talked to you in tells. But I stuck around and nobody vis'd and nobody spoke. There wasn't any possible way for you to have any real witnesses. Only one person, and that was someone who heard a yell. And you are NEVER supposed to flag based just on that since yells are obviously fake-able. You weren't there to hear it with vigilance. But all of a sudden ten minutes later I'm flagged, and you hand't even asked me question one. You fucked up, plain and simple. > > SO, join arbiter, lose 20 lives sitting in town trying to keep order, get put on trial constantly by your own immortals (dont ever expect any support from them), then get kicked out. Ill tell you right now I have never felt so betrayed in my entire life. I played Thrakk straight up. There wasnt a crooked bone in his body and tried like hell to give everyone a fair shake. I spent time with younger arbiters teachin em a few tricks, I spent time trying to rebuild the relationship between empire and arbiter and master and arbiter.. man, I was devoted and this is what I got. Ill never play another arbiter again.. not so long as jaldean and astein are there. > To be honest, I think most of the blame should be placed with Bria. She runs the cabal, sets the tone and orders astein and jaldean to behave as they do with respect to the cabal. If Bria weren't so harsh, so pig-headed, they likely wouldn't be. But she is, so they are. As for you not having a crooked bone in your body, that's as may be, but it doesn't mean you didn't make mistakes, and I know you did. Sorry, but it's true.

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