Posted by Me on April 10, 2000 at 14:40:15:
In Reply to: Narev is a communist (and other entertaining truths) posted by Grallon on April 10, 2000 at 13:44:25:
Well, I agree with you on nearly everything,
comparisons can be made between all Fantasy novels, if you try at all.
Just try to make comparisons between the Wheel of time, and the Sword of Truth series,
It is not hard at all to think of about 20 very strong similarities between them, and I think you are right, they all date way back,
but their modern rebirth was started by Tolkien.
> Sorry, this is from the second page, and here Narev makes some outrageous claims based on half-formed mis-information...And on this particular topic he is stepping into my playground kicking up dirt, so I can not help but respond.
>
> >Compare Tolkien with a no talent ripoff ike >RJ just cause he took inspiration for a few >RIDDLES? Yeesh. Tolkien basically created >fantasy as we know it, and you certainly >can't do things like:
> >Lan = Strider
> >Rand = Frodo
> >Mat, Perrin, etc = Friends along for the >ride
> >Moiraine = Gandalf
>
>
> Lets look at what tolkein did.
>
> Frodo...hero with weaknesses, with a fate beyond which he comprehends(hmm...goes back to greeks)(while not officially an anti-hero, there are examples of this to back before Christ, hell, there is a valid argument that Christ himself was one)
>
> Strider...Strong silent type...Oh yeah, tolkein invented that...
> (the Untouchable Teacher, another stereotype char that has been around since the BC's)
>
> Perregrine/meriadoc...yup, tolkein created the use of foil characters with plot lines circling around the main character to help accentuate it...that is all tolkein...(Foil Friends...Again, ever read Gilgamesh?)
>
> Gandalf...And everyone knows good or evil wizards did not exist before tolkein thought them up.(Motivating Wizard...Ever hear of Merlin?)
>
> The fact is...the form that fantasy takes is based on the forms of fiction that have been around since Beowulf..and before. Tolkein was just the first to take ancient celtic/ european beleifs (elves and dragons and goblins and orcs) and take out the religious element, making it digestable to the Judeo-Christian Western society.
>
> I am not saying that Tolkein wasnt a great story teller. He was. Was he one of the top five in Modern times? He was. Was he the end all be all of Fantasy? No. Was he the first one in modern times to popularize those forms...Yes.
> Does this make those forms, that have been around since before the Hellenes his? No.
>
> Truth is, the Human Hero, the UnTouchable Teacher, the Motivating Wizard, and the Foil Friend, are well documented historical forms of characters. And in fact, were old hat long before Tolkien's Great Great Great grandparents were a twinkle in THIER parents eyes.
>
> What Jordan has done...what so many other Fantasy writers has failed to do since tolkein, is come up with an Original STORY to go along with these forms and base plot. And yes, His literary control and command is sometimes a bit overburdening to those in for a quick fix...wich is why I assume you do not think he is a good writer...You are looking for popcorn, and he is giving you Fillet Mignon.
>
> Are the literary forms Jordan uses new and unique? No. Were they new and unique when tolkein used them? Not by a Long shot. Does Jordan's story contain unique plot devolopements and story twists? Yes. Does Jordan possess a unique ability to show you both a female and male take on the same story? Yes. Does this make Jordan a tolkein ripoff? nomore than Tolkein is a ripoff of every other author before him. Did tolkein create a whole world? Yes. Does Jordan use perhaps the same kind of plot movers that Tolkein, and most authors before him, used? Yes. Does Jordan Surpass tolkein in the amount of depth he goes into behind the actual drives, motivations, and desires of EVERY character he think up? By far.
>
>
> In Short,For you to say that the Eye of the world, and the following 8 books, are a blatant ripoff of tolkein is to prove that you just didnt get it, and it went over your head. Hell, to say that Jordan is a Tolkein ripoff, is just you showing your desire to parade your limited knowledge of the history, forms, and evolution of Literature, in an effort to sound important...for eveyone knows that a critic with a half formed argument sounds more important than a supporter with a wellformed, fact-based argument...
>
> It's Ok, narev, We forgive you.
>
> ****************SORRY, that sounded a bit like those bat people a while back...didn't mean to sound so condescending... Let's just say I am drawing a parrallel between Narev's words, and the motivations of some other people who say similar things***************************
>
> I am the foremost fan of Tolkein...do not get me wrong. I have read every thing he and his son have published, as well as done papers and researched over 750 independant papers writen by actual Literary figures on the subject of Tolkein. And unless you have done the same.........
>
> It does not detract from Tolkein to say another Fiction writer has talent. Actually, in his command of the Lay language of today, and his use of many literary forms, Jordan is even superior to Tolkein. Tolkein wrote the Hobbit without any formal literary backround, as bedtime stories...does this mean he is less of a writer that Jordan? No. It means he was a natural born Genius. Does this mean that Jordan sucks? no. It means he knew more about how to develop a story when he started the series than Tolkein knew until he was halfway through the Lord of the rings.
>
> This has turned into a ramble, I could continue to dazzle myself with examples and stories backing up the point of view that Jordan is NOT just a hack...but that would get boring for you.