Posted by Zulghinlour(IMM) on April 25, 2000 at 00:13:17:
In Reply to: I believe Imm's should not anath mortals. Very long. posted by Graatch(VIP) on April 24, 2000 at 13:41:26:
In response to Graatch
Empire, as a cabal, is really four smaller cabals. Unlike the other cabals, there is not just one person who can induct (and for empire anath as well), but rather there are five persons with that power. Granted, all positions are not always filled, but neither are other cabal leader positions and the imms of those cabals rarely step in even during the in-between leader times. Because of this, there are five times the sets of eyes and ears open for stories, information, whatever, which
would let the sectleader/emperor know that someone is in need of anath’ing. The cabals have mortal leadership for a reason, and empire has more leaders than any other cabal. They should be doing whatever needs doing, that mortals can do. Mortals can anath, so they *should* be the ones who anath. The same has always been true for inducting, and should be equally applied here.
In times when there is an Emperor and four Sect Leaders, anath'ing by immortals is always lower. What still happens? 15 Citizens sit around the Palace twiddling their thumbs. No Sect leaders around, no Emperor around. What's in the Throne? The Codex. How many Sylvans are on? None. How many Scarabs are on? None. How many Barons are on? Two. How many Ragers are on? Three. Then what happens. An Immortal, the Omegus start asking questions. The smart ones get their act together and start moving towards a cabal to take an item. The dumb ones sit around twiddling their thumbs and becoming anathema.
There are those that say that imms are and should be anath’ing because they have access to perfect information and complete discovery of the truth regarding mortal action. This, to me, is really an argument *against* imm anath’ing of mortals. Making someone anathema is a radical alteration of the character, and should be solely based on the IC actions of the character. There is a reason things are not hard coded. People are people, not machines, and you should be able to expect reasonable outcomes with reasonable situations. Imms can snoop you using an ooc power that should not really be used to impose what other mortals can do to you given the proper circumstances.
Lets remember that this is a cabal of powerhungry evil people with no care or concern for anyone but him or herself. In fact showing care or concern for anyone is a reason for anath’ing. So, while these people realize the benefit of law and order, they are not necessarily opposed to breaking any and all rules for their own benefit, given the right circumstances. For example, lets say you want to attack someone in town. If you take the precautions to ensure that nobody is there (lets
say it is Seantryn or Udgaard or even Ofcol, the lesser traveled cities), and the only person who would know you attacked in town is the victim, then you should be able to do so. Assume for the moment that you were correct in thinking nobody was there, that nothing exists to impugn you other than the words of your hapless victim. Then no mortal leader is going to anath you and you should by all rights get away with it. Rightly so. Obviously, if there *was* someone there, duo’d, or simply hiding in a way you could not see, and they inform your sect leader or emperor, then you will certainly have to answer, or deal with it, and anath might be in your future. But that’s the risk you take. The risk you shouldn’t be taking (shouldn’t as in it should not be part of the game) is that some wizi imm just happens to be watching you. There is nothing you can do that will alert you to this, no way you can prepare or deal with it, and so the simple fact that they
can use this ooc power means your play is limited, both in rp and in pk.
Imms should let the mortals chosen as sectleaders/emperor deal with their people. If a citizen gets enough accusations against them for breaking imperial law, go ahead an anath. If they get even one and you just feel like it, go ahead. But when an Imm does it, and does it in such a manner as to exclude any mortal behavior which would have obviated that action, it defeats the purpose of roleplaying.
Lastly, and in some respects most importantly, there is a seemingly basic notion of fairness involved when making such a radical, and generally speaking negative decision regarding a character. When someone opts to join the empire, they know (or should know) that getting anath’ed by your sectleader or emperor is not all that difficult or uncommon, and can be based on virtually nothing at all. But if they play the game right, appease their sectleader/emperor, show strength, etc, and choose to break the imperial law when they cannot by mortal means be caught, then they should not be anath’ed. (For that). There is, in this, a certain level of consistency. A certain amount of predictability that you, the player, can expect. But there is no consistency, no predictability, to imm snooping, and information sharing. There is no way to play the game with imms, is no way to fool them in the way that you can fool a mortal. Whether it be through lying, a lack of witnesses, by destroying items which are evidence, etc. The imm need only check the imm logs and bam! that’s it.
90% of the time when an Imperial is anathemized for attacking in town, it follows the last case. There are enough mortal accusations that I've got to wander around and see what this guy is up to. The fact of the matter is, snoop and "the logs" are rarely if ever used to anath someone, though I don't expect any of you to believe me because we all know it's an immortal conspiriacy against whomever it was that got anathemized.
In response to The Arcane
In the Empire I envision, citizens are accountable to the sect leaders and Emperor, who are in turn accountable to the Immortals. If the sect leaders and Emperor are being lax in enforcing Imperial law, culling the weak from the ranks, and so forth, then they have to answer to the Empire Imms, who tear them a new one. This would give the mortal leadership a serious incentive to be harsh and unforgiving as per the LE nature of the organization, and placing more control in the hands of mortals, who are after all the players of the game.
In this scenario you are responsible for everyone below you? Meaning that if one of your Sect/Empire screws up, your out on your ass. Then we get to find a new Sect Leader/Emperor, and wait for another (or the same) person to cause his anathemization. I don't see this as incentive to be harsh and unforgiving. I see this as incentive to roll up a dumbass and get inducted and see how many people above me I can get anathema before I get booted.
In response to Some guy
Gotta agree here, like when you look at what Kosedran did...Did he get caught by arbs or anyone really? No...It took an immortal to catch him....
I appreciate it when people make claims without knowing all the facts. Kosedran was caught by more than just an Immortal, which is why the Immortals started paying attention to him, and why he is now anathema.
In response to Proud Blade
I'd like to see the empire IMMs have the Anath button available, but constrain themselves to not do it through omniscience.
As an example, let's say I'm an Imperial. I'm talking with a prospective BloodOath in front of two centurions, and I say something dumb. Unbeknownst to me, big Z is snooping me. I think it would be perfectly acceptable Zulgh would then switch into one of the centurions, and report what the centurion heard:
[EMPIRE] An Imperial Centurion: ProudBlade, how dare you speak of the Emperor as a pink-pantied sissy-boy? Your superiors will hear of this treachery!
Then, *smack* Anath. If no Council members are around, have the Omegus chime in. I shouldn't get away with that sort of thing just because the Council isn't logged in.
On the other hand, if I snuck off to some quiet cave, and said the same things, confident that no one is around, the IMM would let it slide. This would create a chance for -smart- politics and subterfuge. (The role command should also help here.)
Typically at the point that Immortals get involved in the anathemazation process, it's because mortals have pointed things out to us. The scenario of the Centurion is fine and dandy, might even use it sometime. The scenario of being off in a cave, usually end up how you hope, by being ignored. I usually know of half a dozen people plotting to take a Council Seat and/or Emperors Throne. Do I go off telling the Emperor and Sect Leaders? Hell no! I like to see people actually vying for the positions. Does anything but talk ever come of it? Once in a blue moon.
Another fine way for an IMM to 'test' Imperials would be either to vis and interrogate them on Imperial dogma, or switch into a mob and talk to them that way. The 'victim' should be picked more or less randomly, and the questions should include a chance for a well-played Imperial to answer correctly.
Again by the time An Immortal or the Omegus is asking questions on Dogma, your fate has already been sealed. This is to make you an example for the rest of the Empire. I've lost count of the times I've asked what the 4th Imperial Law is. Some are quick to answer, others have no clue what I'm talking about, others just decide now is a good time to drop link. As I said above, your fate has been sealed, and most of the times not through any omniscience, but through mortals who actually caught you doing it (even other Imperials) and complained about you.
In response to Watcher
First off, The Imm's should not be anthamizing everyone for every little detail..Especially if other mortals don't know that a certain imperial has done something wrong. Just because a Mortal citizen gets away with something but the Imm's see it, doesn't mean the imm should antha him. If other motals don't see it happen, then it should go as it lay. via, jorin used to kill in the city but never got caught(like wanted or anything). But if a imm woulda seen it, he would have been booted er antha'ed..which isn't to say an imm didn't see it and let it slide.
After all, he did break the imperial law about attacking in cities. Its understandable if he (example jorin) got caught by arbiters and wanted..then by all means, antha him..but if he gets away with the dirty deed, then so be it.. It shouldn't be the imm's job which they have so kindly taken it apon them selves to watch each imperial like a hawk and antha them the moment they step over the line. The other mortals should catch them and bring it to the sec leader or councils attention.
I'll address this point again, since it is quite prevalent in most of the posts. People are not usually anathemized for things which ONLY immortals notice. Nearly every person who has been anathemized has been pointed out by more than a single mortal. Your example of Jorin is a good one to prove this. I cannot recall ever seeing him kill in town, and apparently nobody thought to report it so that it might get noticed. I'm glad you think we watch every single Imperial like a hawk, but its just not possible. There are more Imperials than there are Immortals with snoop.