Posted by Me again. on May 12, 2000 at 12:06:17:
In Reply to: Re: Nope, nope, nope, nope.... How wrong you are. posted by Graatch(VIP) on May 12, 2000 at 09:07:19:
> Further, you complain about the way the Immortals act? To bad, the game has the Immortals it has, deal with it.
>
> That's mature. Take your marbles and go home? Not worthy of you.
First this was a direct response from the same statement that you made, that the Imms have the playerbase they have and they have to deal with it. So if its not worthy of me...
> > Cabal Leadership always starts with the Immortals, then down from there.
>
> That's fine. I'm all for letting it trickle down. If the Emperor is not acting appropriately, not anathing enough, whatever, then the Imm's step in and anath him, and replace him.
> Step down a level. If a sectleader is not doing it right, not anathing enough, acting wrongly, then the Emperor anath's him. He is replaced.
> Step down a level. If a citizen is not doing it right, not living up to citizen standards, then the sectleader anath's him, and replaces him with a ...
>
> See how this works? Each person has someone/some group to fear...
>
> There is just no need for the Imms to be doing it to the citizens, on a general basis...
My point here is with a system that intricate it breaks down as soon as one person fails, also there simply aren't that many responsible players willing to take up leadership roles, be leaders and so on. There isn't a constant line of acceptable people to be sect leader. The Imms aren't going to let some chump who has a history of cheating, poor roleplay, and a negative PK ratio lead the Empire just because everyone else is worse.
>
> Bria, Boltthrower, Pico, Raisa, etc. all do way more uninducting then their Mortal leaders. That's the way things work...
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> See above. If an Emperor or sectleader isn't anathing enough, or being "mean" enough, then it's an imm's job to chew him out and/or anath him. Just like I described.
So an Immortal sees someone fuck-up and they shouldn't do anything? Then the largest (numerically almost all the time) cabal can't act as quickly or easily to take care of problems? It just doesn't make sense to tie the hands of the Empire Imms more than those of the other cabals when they already have a more complex structure to deal with! Especailly since Empire was designed uniquely to have MORE people kicked out. Its part of what makes the Empire what it is, so the Empire Imms should anath whenever they see the need IN ADDITION to the Sect Leaders and Emperor. There is just that much more work.
>
> >
> > A great deal of the betrayal of the Imperial Law/Battlerager Code/Laws of Thera happen when no Mortals are around to witness it and specifically not when the Mortal Leaders are standing right there. So aside from the fact that all CF precident points to having Immortals do the majority of the uninducting, it simply isn't feasible to have only mortals anath.
>
> Obviously, someone is going to say, "but sectleaders and an emperor aren't on all the time, they wont see all the bullshit that would normally get someone anath'd, but is done outside their sight/logon times." Well come on, this is not particulary difficult to get around. Unless the citizen/player logs on *exclusively* when he is the *only* citizen around, then other citizens will see and know of his routine fuck-ups. They can tell their sectleader, or....
There are several problems with this:
1. It doesn't make sense to risk letting someone get away with an offense because the Imm have to wait for someone else to show up. Also you will end up with Imms acting like secretaries for mortals, which violates the power structure.
2. Notes and such from other cabals are always given little regard, unless an Imm can investigate and confirm or deny. Then see 1. to see why telling a Mortal about your investigation.
3. When I have played Imperial Leaders, I often got messages from Immortals to anath so-and-so or watch so-and-so and I followed these mesages. It was fun to roleplay, but if I was getting 5-6 of these everytime I logged on it would start to suck.
>
> There are plenty of ways to find out and patrol, and unlike other cabals where there is just one mortal leader to do it all, and perhaps justification for a greater imm role in day to day business, the empire has five leaders.
All cabals have multiple leaders, in some cases they can't induct. In Empire the leaders are actually less powerful, even though they can induct, because they only have authority over a fraction of the population. The War Master can't do a damn thing to anath an Arcane who is helping kill the Omegus. Should the Immortal just sit there and watch?
> > But in all seriousness, that's not really the point. Nobody is saying that the Imms aren't evil assholes. But you know what? Anathing like this has an ooc component, especially given the way it is done. It's an enormous negative impact on a character which makes the *player's* time investment...
So a Warmaster, Emperor, etc. should have to deal with OOC issues? As soon as they have to then they instantly have to go OOC just to deal with your actions. Thats one of the reasons An Immortal isn't identified, in my mind. They can deal with your cheating, lying, whatever in a way that the Emperor can not.
> >
> > >
> > > If a sectleader or emperor had anath'd them, I bet there would be far, far less anger about this, and likely not even a peep...
> >
> > Player paranoia about the Immortal Conspiracy should be the last thing that should bring about change in the game. There would be no Immortals at all if various mortals had their way. Some group hates just about every Imm out there, so if they worried at all about Player Opinion the game would fall apart.
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> I think that entire paragraph as a non-sequitur. Nobody was saying that game policy should be driven by any particular group's personal goals. And that is not what is going on here. Nobody said there was an Imm conspiracy about this. (as oppose to other things....:P) The arguments put forth here are based on how things work and how things affect players as a whole. Not on whim the desires of some special interest group.
>
This is not a non-sequitor. The reason you don't want Immortals anathing is either because you think the Mortal Leaders can be more effective (which is just silly) or because you don't trust the Immortals to be as fair as the Mortal Leaders, and so you're in on the whole Imm Conspiracy theory.
> >
> > >>While it may not be quantifyably different, it is enough that it *feels* different when it's done by an Imm, and that it changes from Imm to Imm so there isn't even some consistency there, in that smaller sample.
> >
> > If you can feel the difference, then you should be able to figure out who is anathing you so it shouldn't matter if they are Wizi or not. In any case, I imagine that part of the reason that they anath while Wizi instead of Vis is to stop personal attacks from people and to try and create a feeling that you never know who is watching you when, so you'd better be on your toes at all time. Big Brother watching is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to keep people in line with the Cabal Laws of any of the various cabals out there.
>
> And that could be nearly as easily accomplished by having mortal leaders do it. Well informed mortal leaders. Mortal leaders who roleplay it, rather than just some voice from nowhere who explains nothing. Mortal leaders who bribe sectmembers of other sects to gain information about their own members, so they know who to trust at all, who to anath, who to reward, who to put on the "soon to be anath'd" list, etc, etc, etc.
This would be DRASTICALLY less effective. A large number of violations are done in private with no witnesses. Only Imms can catch these. Plus you can't trust enemy cabals reports, they could just send 10 notes and get an effective Citizen anathed, and you can't trust other Sects reports... So your looking for One Quarter of the Empire to do all the monitering... It just wouldn't be effective even in a Utopian World, let alone CF. There wouldn't be the man-power or the drive to do this.
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> > >
> > > Let the Mortals do the anathing. You complain there are no mortals to do it? Well that's because you haven't made anyone sectleader and emperor. You complain that nobody is good enough? Too bad, the game has the players it has...
> >
> > First of all, I'm not complaining that there are no mortals to do it, but I would absolutely prefer to have no Emperor...
It takes a while to transition between leaders under the best of circumstances. There is often no emperor and only half the council, what then? What if they all delete together, or one goes on vacation for two weeks? Should they get anathed for Spring Break? Or are people allowed to just wreck havoc while the Cat is Away? What about slow-fade-away leaders? Should the
>>Bad emperors/leaders? Fine, they run down the empire until someone better comes along and pushes them out.
So fifty players should have to suffer in a shitty Empire while the bad leaders slowly fade away?
OK, we can continue to go back and forth, but your way means more work for players who already avoid Leadership positions, even though the Sect Leaders got Bonus Powers plus more work for the Immortals who have to play secretary for leaders. Plus you assume that everyone is evenly distributed throughout the playing-day and will be watched by the Mortal Leaders. Empire is already having trouble getting people to be leaders with the limited work they have to put in now... you're going to give them more work, more whining notes, more bullshit from the masses, and more shitty citizens who should have been anathed a while ago?
It just doesn't make sense.