Re: Counter counterpoint

Re: Counter counterpoint:
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Posted by The Above Immortal(IMM) on July 20, 2000 at 06:50:22:

In Reply to: Counter counterpoint posted by Someone on July 19, 2000 at 19:00:39:

Did you even read my posts? I said quite specifically:

"You can argue that these aren't mystical, but by the definition that I presented they are mystical. They have spell like effects. Some other of their skills COULD be included too, but these are the ones that really stand out."

The skills I listed are mystical because they have spell like effects, not because they are done without magic or divine intervention. Butcher is like create food, assassinate is like Power Word Kill, ANY type of healing is mystical by the definitions I presented.

Another point that i made in my first assertion is that there is no power-rating in the process. It isn't what class has better skills for PKing... its what classes have the broadest range of skills. I defined the physical/mystical difference quite specifically to show you what the general grading is. Then I showed the "mystical" skills that Rangers and Assassins had to prove my point and counter the above poster's point that Rangers and Assassins don't have "mystical" skills.

Lastly, a personal aside. I stated in my post exactly what my point was, and even pointed out that arguing in the exact manner you did was not the purpose of the post. I was answering a legitimate question and a sophmoric counterpoint like the one you gave, which is both aggressive and ignorant of the information given in my post, really just serves to not have people like me give answers to the questions of the original poster. I asked you not to start a debate on the exact points that you did because it just leads to a pissing match where you are arguing against predefined points. I won't be posting to this subject again, but if you want to start another thread as to whether the classes are balanced, that might be interesting to participate in. This however was a thread where someone asks a question and is answered by someone who knows the answer, that was accomplished I hope.

> My first comment is that classes have been mostly balanced lev vs lev, and xp penalties haven't been touched. Second - Almost all of the 0 penalty classes have been totally overhauled, in most cases making them at least on a par with the 'multi-talent' classes. Third - races have been balanced out(his example of cloud is a good one) - but again, the xp penalty hasn't been touched.

> > Ranger:
> > Armor

> Whoop de do. Anyone that practices armor should be spanked.

> > Barkskin

> See above.

> > Butcher

> Mystical? I think not. Useful? Rarely. Worth even a single point of xp penalty? Given a choice, I'd lose the skill.

> > Call Lightning

> I suppose - but again, given a choice, I'd lose the skill.

> > Camp

> Mystical? No. Nice? Yes.

> > Control Weather

> See 'call lightning'

> > Dark Vision

> On a par with butcher.

> > Entangle

> Got me there.

> > Fashion Staff

> Mystical? No. Useful? Only for a felar. Worth an xp penalty to a felar? Nah.

> > Find Water

> See butcher.

> > Herbs

> Mystical? No. Worth a tiny penalty? Maybe.

> > Imbue Staff

> Got me there, but even to a felar if it would mean a smaller xp penalty I'd lose both skills.

> > Protection Heat Cold

> See herb.

> > Snare

> Mystical? No.

> > Tame

> Snare, camp, entangle, the staff skills, herb - and the unmentioned: camo, creep, ambush, waylay, serp, bearcharge, backrake(worthless). Vs, oh, say, a warrior:
> fourth attack, trip, bash, more weapons, and two sets of specializations - not to mention being useful in all enviroments.

> I'd say that's pretty balanced. Wouldn't you? Well, it was MEANT to be pretty balanced when rangers were overhauled, wasn't it? But, uh, why do rangers still have an xp penalty?

> > Assassin:
> > Bindwounds

> Not significantly mystical - and i meantain that 'mystical' is a stupid qualification for xp penalty. ORIGINALLY the penalties were a carry over of 'what can you do that a warrior can't? AP.. well, no dodge, no fourth attack, but you get a BIG ASS PILE of offensive spells. Paladin? No dodge, no fourth attack.. but a BIG ASS PILE of defensive spells - plus, conditionally, the best damage spell in the game. Back before there WAS such a thing as specialization, or even dual wield... giving rangers a small penalty(camo, ambush, bears) made sense considering all they lost was bash/trip/fourth. Keeping that in mind, I'm going to stop going through the skills one by one. Hell, I'm going to stop going through the rest of the email. In my not so humble opinion, the classes are - by and large - balanced. Thieves need an overhaul. That's it. They've been designed that way. They've been implemented that way. But the xp penalties never changed. They made sense, back before dual wield. AP? Well, you're nearly as good as a mage.. but you also have shield block, enhanced, third, bash, and trip. Pal? Nearly as good as a cleric(well, ok, not really :p), and you're a decent fighter. My vote would be to nix xp penalties on classes entirely. Give *all* non-humans a 200 or 250 penalty(there needs to be some incentive to play a human, and their stats just aren't that great.) Hell. Penalties in general are a lot less meaningful since defense skills aren't level dependant - and a lot of spells are entirely save based(anyone remember when you could only sleep people your level or lower?) - they're just plain annoying. Beyond that, without penalties, you could then give spellcraft, saves, etc a lot more meaning.

> > Blindness Dust
> > Dark Vision
> > Endure
> > Heightened Awareness
> > Mark
> > Locate Mark
> > Owaza
> > Poison dagger
> > Poison Darts
> > Poison Smoke
> > Tiger Claw
> > Vanish

> > You can argue that these aren't mystical, but by the definition that I presented they are mystical. They have spell like effects. Some other of their skills COULD be included too, but these are the ones that really stand out.

> > One could say that the Races are more balanced than before with their new Vulns and such, and perhaps some of them can be relooked at, but Cloud Giants get resistance to weapons, large size, dual-wield two handed, fly, and great warrior-type stats. Their vulns are rough, but not as rough as say Felar or arial. Clouds aren't out of line.

> > Of course we can go back in "I'm right, you're wrong" all day but I'd greatly prefer we didn't. I posted this as one example of "Immortal Point of View" and not to argue about it. You can be sure that things like this are often reviewed, and sometimes they fall behind things like the recent Paladin upgrade and other things to come.

> > Now... if your point was that the changes of Conjurers and Invokers have changed the value of some racial Vulns... that is a more intersting topic. Looking at how Arials and Felars are harder to play now with the rise in magical attacks that hurt them is a quite interesting debate point. Of course I could argue that Arials at least were overpowered until this point, especially with the rise of Specialization... but that's another arguemnent.

> >
> > > Both extracost for classes and races are just obsolete.
> > > they came from 1 Age
> > > A lot things changed but extracost.

> > > These two categories mystical/physical
> > > were an excuse in 1 or 2 age

> > > Let's say assassins don't have too many mystical skills
> > > as well as rangers

> > > I have heard yet another explanation
> > > like offensive/defensive classes.
> > > Those who are in both categories have extra cost
> > > this don't work well now too
> > > (for example conjurers)

> > > Considering extra cost for races:
> > > well, you may agree with 500extra to old clouds
> > > but current clouds aren't that tough (and still have
> > > the same extra cost), etc

> > > Extra costs are just obsolete and should be reconsidered
> > > (or maybe removed with some minor balancing).

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Comments:	> Did you even read my posts? I said quite specifically: > "You can argue that these aren't mystical, but by the definition that I presented they are mystical. They have spell like effects. Some other of their skills COULD be included too, but these are the ones that really stand out." > The skills I listed are mystical because they have spell like effects, not because they are done without magic or divine intervention. Butcher is like create food, assassinate is like Power Word Kill, ANY type of healing is mystical by the definitions I presented. > Another point that i made in my first assertion is that there is no power-rating in the process. It isn't what class has better skills for PKing... its what classes have the broadest range of skills. I defined the physical/mystical difference quite specifically to show you what the general grading is. Then I showed the "mystical" skills that Rangers and Assassins had to prove my point and counter the above poster's point that Rangers and Assassins don't have "mystical" skills. > Lastly, a personal aside. I stated in my post exactly what my point was, and even pointed out that arguing in the exact manner you did was not the purpose of the post. I was answering a legitimate question and a sophmoric counterpoint like the one you gave, which is both aggressive and ignorant of the information given in my post, really just serves to not have people like me give answers to the questions of the original poster. I asked you not to start a debate on the exact points that you did because it just leads to a pissing match where you are arguing against predefined points. I won't be posting to this subject again, but if you want to start another thread as to whether the classes are balanced, that might be interesting to participate in. This however was a thread where someone asks a question and is answered by someone who knows the answer, that was accomplished I hope. > > > My first comment is that classes have been mostly balanced lev vs lev, and xp penalties haven't been touched. Second - Almost all of the 0 penalty classes have been totally overhauled, in most cases making them at least on a par with the 'multi-talent' classes. Third - races have been balanced out(his example of cloud is a good one) - but again, the xp penalty hasn't been touched. > > > Ranger: > > > Armor > > Whoop de do. Anyone that practices armor should be spanked. > > > Barkskin > > See above. > > > Butcher > > Mystical? I think not. Useful? Rarely. Worth even a single point of xp penalty? Given a choice, I'd lose the skill. > > > Call Lightning > > I suppose - but again, given a choice, I'd lose the skill. > > > Camp > > Mystical? No. Nice? Yes. > > > Control Weather > > See 'call lightning' > > > Dark Vision > > On a par with butcher. > > > Entangle > > Got me there. > > > Fashion Staff > > Mystical? No. Useful? Only for a felar. Worth an xp penalty to a felar? Nah. > > > Find Water > > See butcher. > > > Herbs > > Mystical? No. Worth a tiny penalty? Maybe. > > > Imbue Staff > > Got me there, but even to a felar if it would mean a smaller xp penalty I'd lose both skills. > > > Protection Heat Cold > > See herb. > > > Snare > > Mystical? No. > > > Tame > > Snare, camp, entangle, the staff skills, herb - and the unmentioned: camo, creep, ambush, waylay, serp, bearcharge, backrake(worthless). Vs, oh, say, a warrior: > > fourth attack, trip, bash, more weapons, and two sets of specializations - not to mention being useful in all enviroments. > > I'd say that's pretty balanced. Wouldn't you? Well, it was MEANT to be pretty balanced when rangers were overhauled, wasn't it? But, uh, why do rangers still have an xp penalty? > > > Assassin: > > > Bindwounds > > Not significantly mystical - and i meantain that 'mystical' is a stupid qualification for xp penalty. ORIGINALLY the penalties were a carry over of 'what can you do that a warrior can't? AP.. well, no dodge, no fourth attack, but you get a BIG ASS PILE of offensive spells. Paladin? No dodge, no fourth attack.. but a BIG ASS PILE of defensive spells - plus, conditionally, the best damage spell in the game. Back before there WAS such a thing as specialization, or even dual wield... giving rangers a small penalty(camo, ambush, bears) made sense considering all they lost was bash/trip/fourth. Keeping that in mind, I'm going to stop going through the skills one by one. Hell, I'm going to stop going through the rest of the email. In my not so humble opinion, the classes are - by and large - balanced. Thieves need an overhaul. That's it. They've been designed that way. They've been implemented that way. But the xp penalties never changed. They made sense, back before dual wield. AP? Well, you're nearly as good as a mage.. but you also have shield block, enhanced, third, bash, and trip. Pal? Nearly as good as a cleric(well, ok, not really :p), and you're a decent fighter. My vote would be to nix xp penalties on classes entirely. Give all non-humans a 200 or 250 penalty(there needs to be some incentive to play a human, and their stats just aren't that great.) Hell. Penalties in general are a lot less meaningful since defense skills aren't level dependant - and a lot of spells are entirely save based(anyone remember when you could only sleep people your level or lower?) - they're just plain annoying. Beyond that, without penalties, you could then give spellcraft, saves, etc a lot more meaning. > > > Blindness Dust > > > Dark Vision > > > Endure > > > Heightened Awareness > > > Mark > > > Locate Mark > > > Owaza > > > Poison dagger > > > Poison Darts > > > Poison Smoke > > > Tiger Claw > > > Vanish > > > You can argue that these aren't mystical, but by the definition that I presented they are mystical. They have spell like effects. Some other of their skills COULD be included too, but these are the ones that really stand out. > > > One could say that the Races are more balanced than before with their new Vulns and such, and perhaps some of them can be relooked at, but Cloud Giants get resistance to weapons, large size, dual-wield two handed, fly, and great warrior-type stats. Their vulns are rough, but not as rough as say Felar or arial. Clouds aren't out of line. > > > Of course we can go back in "I'm right, you're wrong" all day but I'd greatly prefer we didn't. I posted this as one example of "Immortal Point of View" and not to argue about it. You can be sure that things like this are often reviewed, and sometimes they fall behind things like the recent Paladin upgrade and other things to come. > > > Now... if your point was that the changes of Conjurers and Invokers have changed the value of some racial Vulns... that is a more intersting topic. Looking at how Arials and Felars are harder to play now with the rise in magical attacks that hurt them is a quite interesting debate point. Of course I could argue that Arials at least were overpowered until this point, especially with the rise of Specialization... but that's another arguemnent. > > > > > > > Both extracost for classes and races are just obsolete. > > > > they came from 1 Age > > > > A lot things changed but extracost. > > > > These two categories mystical/physical > > > > were an excuse in 1 or 2 age > > > > Let's say assassins don't have too many mystical skills > > > > as well as rangers > > > > I have heard yet another explanation > > > > like offensive/defensive classes. > > > > Those who are in both categories have extra cost > > > > this don't work well now too > > > > (for example conjurers) > > > > Considering extra cost for races: > > > > well, you may agree with 500extra to old clouds > > > > but current clouds aren't that tough (and still have > > > > the same extra cost), etc > > > > Extra costs are just obsolete and should be reconsidered > > > > (or maybe removed with some minor balancing).

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