Posted by Shokai(IMM) on August 17, 2000 at 14:21:58:
In Reply to: As Macheath goes, so shall I. posted by Graatch(VIP) on August 17, 2000 at 09:01:51:
> I no longer play cf. But like Macheath, I'll be on the forum anyway. I think this is a fine solution to ending frustrations on both sides. Hasta. > Much of the imm staff is either cheating, or aware of others breaking the rules and by not doing anything tacitly approving. The game is no longer fun when you are aware of these things. Point of frustration 1) You've eluded to, suggested, hinted, and talked all around it...you've pointed fingers, yelled at the top of your lungs...but no proof. Some of the things you've pointed at weren't cheating at all...as Nep pointed out, you crossed a line and since we couldn't escort you to the door without you coming back, other things were done. > I have no doubts that some imm, likely mr. smith, will come here and in his sarcastic manner ask "who is cheating? how?" and simply scoff because I do not offer everything he wants to hear. He, and others there, live in fantasyland where things are so simple and he very much likes to play with words. I'm not Mr. Smith, nor am I sarcastic...but you're right, we will ask. Why? Well...maybe if you'd stop fighting "the bad immortals" long enough to give some of us you trust this information that you've gleaned from your sources of who is cheating, what they're doing, etc etc etc. Two things would happen..1) The problem would be solved, and the offenders would have thier teeth in. 2) The frustration some of us feel whenever your name is mentioned would be abated, however you leaving the mud will probably work the same. > Of course, he being one of the cheaters doesn't help any, but that's something else entirely. Proof. You work in law, you know how essential proof is. Would you feel comfortable representing someone who was brought down for murder when all they offered as an alabi was 'I didn't do it, you have to know I didn't do it'? Of course not, that's how I feel when I see you post about Immortal A cheating, and quite honestly I'm not a big enough McCarthy fan to start a witch hunt based on vague, hazy accusations. > There are also some imms who are not cheaters and rule breakers and blatant abusers of ooc knowledge in their work, and I applaud them. I fear they are in the minority, in the high ranks at least. If I had a clue about people cheating, I can garuntee you I would be raising hell and would have them kicked off, or would just do the double delete. The thing is, I know most of the people I work with, I've talked with them off and on for about 5 years now...I trust them. If you can offer me proof (as every immstaffer you've had contact with has said before) they'll be gone or I will. Still, it goes on and he knows it. > In any event, I am no longer playing mortals. I leave playing knowing I was elite in roleplaying, and not elite in pk'ing. Not every char was great, some being made for different reasons. But each had good roleplay at least, and those that were important to me were very good. Say what you want, but the proof is in the pudding. Every char but two (out of over 30) that I wanted a tattoo for, received it. Two heroimms (imm'd for roleplaying) and two leaders and various sub-leaders all show that the same imms who don't like me personally have already proven they know my roleplaying ability. > I do not plan on returning to #cf on irc. If one of you wants to reclaim it, I am sure it will become available in a week or two as I have not been there in a week already. > I still enjoy reading about the mud though, and so I will still be here and keep up to date. It is quite a good way to take a break during the day at work. > Lastly, when scarabaeus et al. came to irc back in march or april and accused me of having imm information and a leak, because I knew who guerric was playing at the time, I had no imm source. I had not had one since Andaren right after he was booted out, and Jullias and Twist while I was Scaurus and shortly afterwards. > However, after scarabaeus' disgusting showing on irc that night, not one but two imms started telling me things, and how my chars were being screwed, just as scarabaeus said he would. Both are 56 or under, and I will not reveal their names because it seems they are only two of a small minority who feel just as ashamed and repulsed by what scara and others are doing as I do. But they seem to be growing, and that is my ray of hope. One day perhaps cf will live up to the ideals to which the cheaters claim they aspire. How nice, integrity...I think CF would be better served if the two immortals had gone through other channels...not leaked information to you. > Maybe then I'll return. I'm sure you are all breathless with anticipation for that day. > Go ahead and flame, I'll read them, but likely wont respond. Especially not to simple mindless insults, which chances are wont survive long anyhow. > -Graatch No insults. No flames. Good-bye and thanks for all the red herrings...my offer stands, if you really want to see the cheaters punished, and really have concrete proof of cheating, get it to me, I'll see that it's dealt with. However, at this point in the game, I don't believe you have any concrete proof. "How can they look into my eyes the boy with a thorn in his side..."
I'm sure most of what I'm going to say has already been said...but still, I feel some deep urge to post a reply.
This Graatchin Epic reminds me of a story I was told as a little kid by my uncle..of a little boy and wolves. The kid was sure there were wolves in the forest, so kept standing on the loudest hill and yelling 'wolves! wolves! wolves!'...but never saying where, how many, or what they were doing. The first few times the villagers climbed the hill and saw a few dogs..shrugged and left. The kid kept yelling. Eventually the people just ignored him...then got irrate and kicked him out into the forest...where he actually met the wolves he had screamed about. (My uncle was a happy sort)
> I detest cyradia as a person, but I have no reason to believe she breaks the rules, for example. The same goes for Astein -- though I like him. I am simply saying I don't know of any improprieties associated with him. I also know that Shokai does not actively cheat, but unfortunately I believe he is aware of things that go on and for lack of sufficient power he either cannot or will not change them, or call out those doing it. By that I mean that he knows that there are 58, 59 and imps doing it and he cannot change them. I think he is in a rock and a hard place because if you cannot change them then integrity requires one to resign, and nobody wants that, especially after so many hours of game play and game work.
> I have no knowledge of Galadriel or Boltthrower abusing their power, and the few times I spoke with either leads me to believe they are either unaware of what goes on, or not around often enough to do anything about it. Still, it is troublesome.
When you kick a dog again and again and again don't be surprised when it starts snarling and trying to harm you eventually. You did a lot of things that were beyond low and underhanded, get off the high horse, I'm sure fighting fire with fire is how you see it...but I see it as burning the forest to see if there were wolves. I'd like to be able to say I'll miss your characters...but I won't. You leaving CF makes me breathe a lot easier, and takes a bit of tension out of my shoulders. I'd urge you to jump ship off the forum as well...but that's totally up to you...however if you decide to start using the forum as a breeding grounds for you accusations of 'blatant immortal cheating', I will be very disappointed in you as a person.
and swear they don't believe me?
How can they hear me say those words
and say they don't believe me?
And if they don't believe me now
will they ever believe me?
- The Smiths