You've driven me nuts in the past Tharena.. but that was extremely well put. (n/t)

You've driven me nuts in the past Tharena.. but that was extremely well put. (n/t):
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Posted by The First Apostle on September 19, 2000 at 11:03:26:

In Reply to: Some thoughts.. (Shokai, flame me please if I'm deluded. ;) ) posted by Tharena on September 19, 2000 at 10:49:25:

> > > Honor is honor is honor is honor. The basic principle of 'honor' doesn't change...regardless of which god presides over it. The biggest thing about honor, is that it's something that comes from within, not something that another entity governs over you. You make your choices and decide if they're honorable or not....if they're not, expect a smack down.

> >If Honor comes from within, from yourself, and you make your choices thinking what you are doing is honorable, then how can you be smacked down? Being smacked down means someone is judging you and in fact their concept of honor does govern you. Otherwise there would be no "smack down" other than from your own conscience. You can't say honor is from within and not from without and then say a force from without will smack you down for not being honorable. What you meant to say, perhaps, is that in most cases it comes from within, and on the hard questions the outside force is willing to let you do as you believe right, but for most of the less complex questions, you will, in fact, be held to a standard set by someone else.

> Sure, I'm a bad one to argue this, I argued with Cador's Avatar about honor. =P

> Let's start with the dictionary, even though I'm sure Cador is just rolling over in his little hovel (or wherever he took himself off to in IC terms) as I speak. ;)

> honor, Br honour
> n. moral integrity
> (rhet.) the esteem accorded to virtue or talent

> Playing a sphere Honor, whether you decide to become a diehard follower of Balgrimnr, or not, is essentially the same.

> One way, the only person you are supposedly accountable to is yourself, though if you break your own code of honor, you should still feel the pain of doing so. If there is something specific to your characters' Honor that they would/would not do, perhaps you should outline your ideas of it in your role so you don't get a beat down for something your character SHOULD/Should not feel is honorable. And then, if you break your own tenets, expect a beat down. You made the rules, you should be punished for breaking em. AND if you realize you've fucked up your own tenets, but no one else does, it should still cause a schism in your character's mind. RP it. =P It makes for great brownie points and Imm interaction. WRITE IT IN YOUR ROLE. ;)

> Of course, you could screw up your own honor, and not tell anyone, and pretend it didn't happen. Of course, that's the time the Imms are watching and will wreak flames on your sorry ass for being so dishonest.

> The second way, your idea of Honor and Balgrimnr's should be pretty much in line, whether your code is similar to his or not. You still have a standing you stick to, right? And when you muck it up, you get your smack down. By being a follower of Balgrimnr, you're more or less just giving him more leeway in the smackdown category.. (not tat you, etc etc) if you screw it up.

> Either way, Honor is internal. Look at it this way. You don't define honor. IT DEFINES YOU.

> I know Graatch, a hard concept to deal with for you, eh?

>
> >As for the belief that honor can't be explained and either you have it or you don't, that's also not really true. The problem is that everybody who has spoken about it in this game has either changed their definitions with time and circumstances (which means they really weren't defining it as itself but only relative to the game) or doesn't want others to copy them so they beg off by saying it's too amorphous for definition. If the words fail you, one can always simply give examples. But I am confident that the concept is definable with language. You and the other immortals just dont want to because you fear hearing it over and over and over again. Understandable, but a tad dishonest.

> Things that ARE and ARE NOT honorable can be explained in examples. Honor itself cannot. Defining honor in a sentence is like trying to define entropy. =P You can give examples of Chaos. But try defining it. =P You still come up with an ambiguous definition. But that's because chaos is fun.

> So, if you're feeling eager, define it for us, please. =P Moral integrity is internal. Your moral values (??) come from within, whether or not taught to you by someone else. You're the one who chooses where your morals stand. Asking someone on CF to define honor is like asking them about all of their morals. For any situation.

> *taps foot impatiently*

> You defining honor yet, Graatch?
> I'm sure the forum is waiting...

> - Tharena

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Comments:	> > > > Honor is honor is honor is honor. The basic principle of 'honor' doesn't change...regardless of which god presides over it. The biggest thing about honor, is that it's something that comes from within, not something that another entity governs over you. You make your choices and decide if they're honorable or not....if they're not, expect a smack down. > > >If Honor comes from within, from yourself, and you make your choices thinking what you are doing is honorable, then how can you be smacked down? Being smacked down means someone is judging you and in fact their concept of honor does govern you. Otherwise there would be no "smack down" other than from your own conscience. You can't say honor is from within and not from without and then say a force from without will smack you down for not being honorable. What you meant to say, perhaps, is that in most cases it comes from within, and on the hard questions the outside force is willing to let you do as you believe right, but for most of the less complex questions, you will, in fact, be held to a standard set by someone else. > > Sure, I'm a bad one to argue this, I argued with Cador's Avatar about honor. =P > > Let's start with the dictionary, even though I'm sure Cador is just rolling over in his little hovel (or wherever he took himself off to in IC terms) as I speak. ;) > > <b>honor</b>, <i>Br</i> <B>honour</b> > > <i>n.</i> moral integrity > > <i>(rhet.)</i> the esteem accorded to virtue or talent > > Playing a sphere Honor, whether you decide to become a diehard follower of Balgrimnr, or not, is essentially the same. > > One way, the only person you are supposedly accountable to is yourself, though if you break your own code of honor, you should still feel the pain of doing so. If there is something specific to your characters' Honor that they would/would not do, perhaps you should outline your ideas of it in your role so you don't get a beat down for something your character SHOULD/Should not feel is honorable. And then, if you break your own tenets, expect a beat down. You made the rules, you should be punished for breaking em. AND if you realize you've fucked up your own tenets, but no one else does, it should still cause a schism in your character's mind. RP it. =P It makes for great brownie points and Imm interaction. WRITE IT IN YOUR ROLE. ;) > > Of course, you could screw up your own honor, and not tell anyone, and pretend it didn't happen. Of course, that's the time the Imms are watching and will wreak flames on your sorry ass for being so dishonest. > > The second way, your idea of Honor and Balgrimnr's should be pretty much in line, whether your code is similar to his or not. You still have a standing you stick to, right? And when you muck it up, you get your smack down. By being a follower of Balgrimnr, you're more or less just giving him more leeway in the smackdown category.. (not tat you, etc etc) if you screw it up. > > Either way, Honor is internal. Look at it this way. You don't define honor. IT DEFINES YOU. > > I know Graatch, a hard concept to deal with for you, eh? > > > > >As for the belief that honor can't be explained and either you have it or you don't, that's also not really true. The problem is that everybody who has spoken about it in this game has either changed their definitions with time and circumstances (which means they really weren't defining it as itself but only relative to the game) or doesn't want others to copy them so they beg off by saying it's too amorphous for definition. If the words fail you, one can always simply give examples. But I am confident that the concept is definable with language. You and the other immortals just dont want to because you fear hearing it over and over and over again. Understandable, but a tad dishonest. > > Things that ARE and ARE NOT honorable can be explained in examples. Honor itself cannot. Defining honor in a sentence is like trying to define entropy. =P You can give examples of Chaos. But try defining it. =P You still come up with an ambiguous definition. But that's because chaos is fun. > > So, if you're feeling eager, define it for us, please. =P Moral integrity is internal. Your moral values (??) come from within, whether or not taught to you by someone else. You're the one who chooses where your morals stand. Asking someone on CF to define honor is like asking them about all of their morals. For any situation. > > taps foot impatiently > > You defining honor yet, Graatch? > > I'm sure the forum is waiting... > > - Tharena

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