Oh, I know they're not. That's why I respect them. (n.txt)

Oh, I know they're not. That's why I respect them. (n.txt):
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Posted by Zepachu on November 1, 2000 at 08:57:58:

In Reply to: You need to stop assuming the immstaff is a wholly ethical and righteous bunch. n/t posted by Fly on the Wall on November 1, 2000 at 08:18:13:

> > ...coded from the ground up, I have had experience with these situations.

> > My question is, Jaldean, and I don't require an answer... what did you intend on accomplishing by originally posting that conversation between Pico and yourself?

> > a) It wasn't the entire situation.
> > b) That's a private matter.

> > I feel you posted it originally because you were angry, disappointed, upset, and that was your way of lashing out. Is this true? I don't particularly care. Just answer that yourself. I happen to think I am right because you involved yourself in this thread again. You could have just not replied if you truly didn't want to rehash anything. In fact, I think that you wanted to rehash.

> > If I'm wrong, I apologize, but I can see the ImmStaff's view on this. I was helping someone out by tutoring them with certain coding techniques, and had them "watch the thought process" in the steps I took to implement a certain portion of code. That person then passed that information along to someone, who applied it and it took investigation work from me to find out that it was actually my code. These issues are very sensitive, and he was dealt with. I digress, but that's how important NDAs are...

> > After all is said and done and my decision is to not delete my rant, I'll put my reply here:

> > It IS unethical for you to post it on here, originally. Obviously you cannot help someone else posting it, but whatever. If I were in Pico's place, and I have been, I would have handled it the exact same way. What would have made you happy? Him being more apologetic? He was clear cut. Boom, that's it, you're not good enough. That's basically what he said. What's wrong with that, hm? Nothing at all. I think it was handled perfectly by the ImmStaff.

> > Look at your post now... you said that you were offered a chance to reimmort. Is that ANYONE's business here? No, but you feel the need to put that in because you know you have no ground to stand on. Saying something like that allows you to stand up somewhere, or else you're just hanging there.

> > Alright, and now for my apologies. I'm heated. I'm angry. I'm pissed at this entire situation, something that should have remained private between yourself and the ImmStaff. NO ONE, I repeat, NO ONE here can help you achieve what you wanted to achieve. WHY post it? That's my gripe, and it's a HUGE one at that, as you can see.

> > My opinion stands that you posted it because you knew some people would feel the same as you, thereby making yourself feel vindicated. I personally think you were doing a good job as an Immortal! I interacted with you on several occasions and you WERE one of the more "interactive" ones. I don't think you should have been stripped, but again... I don't know the details, the IMMStaff does. AGAIN, that's why it shouldn't have been posted here. You knew you had a good image in regard to interactions with the playerbase, and you used that imagefor support. Whether that was intentional or not that IS what happened.

> > -Zepachu.

> > > > > a large portion of the player base does not know exactly what to expect from the Immortal staff - they do not know what it is that makes a "good immortal" and "successful immortal".

> > > > Although that's a valid point, I don't think a single conversation without context does anything to demystify the process. I might even submit that it muddies the waters all the more because (a) the staff isn't about to begin justifying business decisions on a public forum and (b) without more information you're likely to imagine the worst. If Jaldean himself is mystified, then he should have taken it up with the staff privately instead of breaking a verbal non-disclosure agreement and airing the grievance here; it was neither good form nor a good ethical move.

> > > It was definatly discussed privately. The best answer I got was this log. Speaking with anyone else, including in my email discussions, did not yield anything beyond more questions from everyone else. This was not something I was going to bring up, but you calling me unethical prompted some form of response. Believe me when I say I asked around for other opinions, as you can see me doing in the log as well. The general response was puzzlement over what happened. Sharing immortal-only discussions is grounds for dismissal, according to an immortal helpfile. I had already been dismissed, and had not been given any decent reason by anyone who knew what was going on, and all of my attempts to find out had been rebuffed. It would be different if I didn't think I had been doing a pretty damn good job. I don't believe the sharing of my side of the story was unreasonable or unethical, although I believe the way this was handled by the CF staff was. If I'm wrong feel free to point out why, perhaps you can reveal what I've been trying to find out all along. I don't see this as a great start for a new company. It certainly appears that they were trying to save face instead of coming out in the open. To top it all off, via emails with an Implementor, I was offered to have my IC farewell note restored, citing that removing it was a hasty decision, which I declined. I was offered a chance to reimmort at the same time, although it would have to be down the road atleast a year due to my posting of the conversation with Pico, according to the Implementor. This, to be honest, offened me. After 1755 hours are thrown away without being given a reason, the best appology I get is a chance to do it all over again.

> > > > > This log illustrates what sort of qualities and contributions the Immortal staff is looking for, and lets the rising player base know what to expect, should they manage to carry out their Immortal dreams.

> > > > Again, I disagree. This log doesn't tell the whole story. And although you can say, "then tell us the whole story" I can pretty much guarantee you that's not going to happen. This game has become a company. You're going to see changes taking place in how it is run (eg. violation of non-disclosure agreements are going to be taken very seriously) as well as the look and feel of the game (eg. I think some of you have previewed the new web sites).

> > > > > I think that is what the forum is all about: demystifying that which does not need to be mystified about a quality game.

> > > > I agree. I don't think this post served that purpose. Apparently neither did Dioxide (or another VIP), as it was removed the first time.

> > > The original post was removed because the Immortals emailed Dioxide and insisted upon it. He apologized to me for having to remove it per a prior agreement with them.

> > > This was not something I wanted to rehash, and I had no desire to hint at conversations with the Implementor that I spoke with, as I do hold quite a bit of respect for him, but I wont be called unethical without responding.

> > > Jaldean

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Comments:	> > > ...coded from the ground up, I have had experience with these situations. > > > My question is, Jaldean, and I don't require an answer... what did you intend on accomplishing by originally posting that conversation between Pico and yourself? > > > a) It wasn't the entire situation. > > > b) That's a private matter. > > > I feel you posted it originally because you were angry, disappointed, upset, and that was your way of lashing out. Is this true? I don't particularly care. Just answer that yourself. I happen to think I am right because you involved yourself in this thread again. You could have just not replied if you truly didn't want to rehash anything. In fact, I think that you wanted to rehash. > > > If I'm wrong, I apologize, but I can see the ImmStaff's view on this. I was helping someone out by tutoring them with certain coding techniques, and had them "watch the thought process" in the steps I took to implement a certain portion of code. That person then passed that information along to someone, who applied it and it took investigation work from me to find out that it was actually my code. These issues are very sensitive, and he was dealt with. I digress, but that's how important NDAs are... > > > After all is said and done and my decision is to not delete my rant, I'll put my reply here: > > > It <b>IS</b> unethical for you to post it on here, originally. Obviously you cannot help someone else posting it, but whatever. If I were in Pico's place, and I have been, I would have handled it the exact same way. What would have made you happy? Him being more apologetic? He was clear cut. Boom, that's it, you're not good enough. That's basically what he said. What's wrong with that, hm? Nothing at all. I think it was handled perfectly by the ImmStaff. > > > Look at your post now... you said that you were offered a chance to reimmort. Is that ANYONE's business here? No, but you feel the need to put that in because you know you have no ground to stand on. Saying something like that allows you to stand up somewhere, or else you're just hanging there. > > > Alright, and now for my apologies. I'm heated. I'm angry. I'm pissed at this entire situation, something that should have remained private between yourself and the ImmStaff. NO ONE, I repeat, NO ONE here can help you achieve what you wanted to achieve. WHY post it? That's my gripe, and it's a HUGE one at that, as you can see. > > > My opinion stands that you posted it because you knew some people would feel the same as you, thereby making yourself feel vindicated. I personally think you were doing a good job as an Immortal! I interacted with you on several occasions and you WERE one of the more "interactive" ones. I don't think you should have been stripped, but again... I don't know the details, the IMMStaff does. AGAIN, that's why it shouldn't have been posted here. You knew you had a good image in regard to interactions with the playerbase, and you used that imagefor support. Whether that was intentional or not that <b>IS</b> what happened. > > > -Zepachu. > > > > > > a large portion of the player base does not know exactly what to expect from the Immortal staff - they do not know what it is that makes a "good immortal" and "successful immortal". > > > > > Although that's a valid point, I don't think a single conversation without context does anything to demystify the process. I might even submit that it muddies the waters all the more because (a) the staff isn't about to begin justifying business decisions on a public forum and (b) without more information you're likely to imagine the worst. If Jaldean himself is mystified, then he should have taken it up with the staff privately instead of breaking a verbal non-disclosure agreement and airing the grievance here; it was neither good form nor a good ethical move. > > > > It was definatly discussed privately. The best answer I got was this log. Speaking with anyone else, including in my email discussions, did not yield anything beyond more questions from everyone else. This was not something I was going to bring up, but you calling me unethical prompted some form of response. Believe me when I say I asked around for other opinions, as you can see me doing in the log as well. The general response was puzzlement over what happened. Sharing immortal-only discussions is grounds for dismissal, according to an immortal helpfile. I had already been dismissed, and had not been given any decent reason by anyone who knew what was going on, and all of my attempts to find out had been rebuffed. It would be different if I didn't think I had been doing a pretty damn good job. I don't believe the sharing of my side of the story was unreasonable or unethical, although I believe the way this was handled by the CF staff was. If I'm wrong feel free to point out why, perhaps you can reveal what I've been trying to find out all along. I don't see this as a great start for a new company. It certainly appears that they were trying to save face instead of coming out in the open. To top it all off, via emails with an Implementor, I was offered to have my IC farewell note restored, citing that removing it was a hasty decision, which I declined. I was offered a chance to reimmort at the same time, although it would have to be down the road atleast a year due to my posting of the conversation with Pico, according to the Implementor. This, to be honest, offened me. After 1755 hours are thrown away without being given a reason, the best appology I get is a chance to do it all over again. > > > > > > This log illustrates what sort of qualities and contributions the Immortal staff is looking for, and lets the rising player base know what to expect, should they manage to carry out their Immortal dreams. > > > > > Again, I disagree. This log doesn't tell the whole story. And although you can say, "then tell us the whole story" I can pretty much guarantee you that's not going to happen. This game has become a company. You're going to see changes taking place in how it is run (eg. violation of non-disclosure agreements are going to be taken very seriously) as well as the look and feel of the game (eg. I think some of you have previewed the new web sites). > > > > > > I think that is what the forum is all about: demystifying that which does not need to be mystified about a quality game. > > > > > I agree. I don't think this post served that purpose. Apparently neither did Dioxide (or another VIP), as it was removed the first time. > > > > The original post was removed because the Immortals emailed Dioxide and insisted upon it. He apologized to me for having to remove it per a prior agreement with them. > > > > This was not something I wanted to rehash, and I had no desire to hint at conversations with the Implementor that I spoke with, as I do hold quite a bit of respect for him, but I wont be called unethical without responding. > > > > Jaldean

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