Posted by Fly on the Wall on November 1, 2000 at 18:17:23:
In Reply to: For fucks sakeswe arent customers..we are leeches playing a free game they put together for us, and yes..I am even one of the top donaters. n/t posted by Angered on November 1, 2000 at 14:56:55:
> > > I see this (this log, this thread, this post, whatever) as an example of so much of what is wrong with CF these days. > > > > First off, I have to say this is one of the goofiest > > > The problem here is that you speak of a bottom line as though it were something scientific, something absolute by which all controversy here could be settled. Contribution is awfully subjective. Anyone who has much experience at all in the corporate sector that you've been touting so highly of late will almost surely have encountered a situation where they were shafted as a result of personality conflicts or other non-objective issues between themselves and a superior. If someone is your pal, or if they're a part of your little clique, you're going to be more favorably disposed towards said performance evaluation, and vice versa. > > > Why is this such a thorny issue for the playerbase, and why are many people angered by Jaldean's treatment here? Not because we haven't seen the other side of the story.... we have! You admit it yourself, he wasn't dismissed because he passed around copies of the area docs like Girl Scout cookies, or because he gave someone his imm password and let them run around Asgaard. He was dismissed because his contributions were deemed unworthy. The playerbase has experienced those contributions firsthand. Two areas of high quality. Hundreds upon hundreds of hours spent visible, interviewing and interacting with mortals. This translated to a genuine enhancement of the experience for many a player. I could name current "real" (53+) immortals who have contributed less, but I won't. > > > How many heroimms reach 52 and then are dismissed (rather then leave of their own > > > Add up these facts, and you have your explanation for the disgruntlement that is festering here. Jaldean is very credible in this situation... he reacted calmly and basically explained what was frustrating him. In that situation, he knew he was getting denied. He wasn't trying to argue his way out of it... he was honestly trying to understand what he'd done wrong. > > > I think you'd be hard-pressed to find players who would've been upset were Jaldean promoted to 53. It's a shame the immortal staff didn't feel that way, whatever their reasons. > > > > All the "look over there!" and comments that fly > > > Again, refer to my point above. You yourself have admitted that the issue was performance, not secret wrongdoings or the like. The whole point of performance is to make the game better for the players. Every player would agree, I imagine, that he accomplished that reasonably well given his limitations as a 52. > > > > I'd concur there. I think he was about as friendly > > > So you're implying he sucked, and that Pico did a nice job of being friendly about it? Jaldean didn't suck. > > > > Monitors might be more accurate than supervisors. Ultimately the IMPs (as a group, not individually) are responsible for all terminations. Obviously only Jaldean, Bria, and Astein can speak about the amount of communication between them, not you or I. > > > The argument being made here is that this system of "monitoring" appears to have clearly failed, either due to intentional prejudice or unfortunate oversight. Either way, this ineluctable facade the immortal staff has presented in this matter only serves to compound the frustration. Does it really matter what the players think? It doesn't seem to. Now, obviously I'm not for a moment arguing that we should conduct imm staff decisions by popular majority vote or some such nonsense, but in cases such as these, where the sole question up for debate is "Has he contributed to improving the mud for the players?" it's narrow-minded to exclude feedback to the contrary. > > > > I'm not sure I understand what's being said here, but > > > You could have engaged in some sort of conversation in response to his complaints that everything he said was being ignored, rather than saying "Sorry, that's not how we hear it." Maybe then you'd have some way of knowing, yes? > > > > If someone who worked for me in telecommunications > > > A quote from Jaldean: 'And I'm not sure what difference it makes, but I'm not going to become an anti-immortal or anything, and I certainly wont speak of any information that was immortal-only to anyone else.' > > > Translating that as 'I no longer respect the intellectual property rights of Company A' is a bit of a reach, don't you think?' > > > As an aside, do you realize how ridiculously immature and asinine continuing your Graatch-bashing makes you look? The guy's long gone, having finally gotten the message that the immstaff simply didn't want him playing their game, and you persist with random cheapshots? I mean... why? You're a grown man, for god's sake, and you apparently have the biting wit of a nine year old. You speak of "professionalism" in one sentence, and then wallow in sickening immaturity in the next. Maybe the only way you got by as a schoolboy was to occasionally stumble upon something others found amusing and repeat it endlessly to simulate a sense of acceptance? I don't know.... but it doesn't work at this stage of the game, sorry. > > > > Just for sake of reference, what companies have you > > > Alright, this is already longer than I'd intended, but I have one more point that needs to be made. You've made the corporate analogy more times than I can count throughout this discussion. Yes, I know you have a nice little "LLC" next to your mud's name on the web, and I'm sure that gives people warm fuzzy feelings to look at, but why the insistence on applying a corporate ethic to this free source of entertainment? It's been a long and tortuous path from CF's origins as a foundling venture of a few friends, and look where that path has led. I'm sure the immortals have faint glimmers of dollar signs in their eyes, or maybe fancy something as ludicrous as an IPO (why else would they be passing out five-figure-penalty NDAs?), but is that really an excuse for bringing the pettiness and coldness of corporate culture into this theoretical utopia of a gameworld? People mud to escape that crap in their daily lives, and we don't need or want to see the ugliness and pettiness of some of the individuals behind the game. That dark side certainly shouldn't be encouraged. Despite what you say, this is not a business. It's a free text game with a dwindling playerbase that you need just as much as we need you. Maybe somewhere underneath all this crassness is some kernel of what initially made CF the kickass game it became: enthusiasm, excitement, and perhaps even a touch of idealism.... not greed, or clashing egos, or becoming so caught up in building a grand palace that you don't notice the foundation crumbling beneath you.
> > > > threads I've read in a while. Jaldean was let go for
> > > > not contributing, not because of ethical violations
> > > > (I think Pico says that pretty clearly). Writing part
> > > > of another immhero's area probably didn't help any.
> > > > There are probably a couple other things that didn't
> > > > help any either. Bottom line is contribution, though.
> > > volition)?
> > > > around in these discussions remind me of dealing
> > > > with cheaters in the Realm of the Dead. You can
> > > > guess all you want about what goes on behind the
> > > > scenes in this game, but unless you're back there
> > > > doing the work, you're pretty much just guessing
> > > > or dealing with a patchwosecond hand information.
> > > > as you can get about it without coming out with rude
> > > > "Look, you sucked!" comments. (I should mention I
> > > > don't know Jaldean from Adam, but I know I'm not as
> > > > pleasant as Pico in matters like this and think he
> > > > did a wonderful job.)
> > > > again, Bria and Astein don't have the power to let
> > > > Jaldean go. They can make recommendations and provide
> > > > feedback only. I'm guessing what Jaldean meant here
> > > > was that he thinks they were too uncomfortable with
> > > > talking to him about problems directly. Like I said,
> > > > we have no way of knowing that.
> > > > company A said something like "I'm gone, and I no
> > > > longer respect the intellectual property rights of
> > > > company A" and I then heard he was going to work for
> > > > telecommunications company B, I'd be a little leary
> > > > of what was going on there. Even if company B had
> > > > a sharp, vastly talented legal staff like Graatch
> > > > working for them, I'd be wary that my company's legal
> > > > contracts were being violated. If you know anything
> > > > about NDA's, you know I'm not making this up.
> > > > yourself run? I think the 7 years that CF has been
> > > > successful at keeping itself up and running despite
> > > > the fact that no one even gets paid (and we end up
> > > > paying out of pocket to provide a game for you guys)
> > > > is a pretty good track record. I'm guessing the
> > > > combined corporate experience of the professional
> > > > immortals we have on staff might outweigh your own
> > > > personal experience, but I'm open to correction.