Some points to raise on Stein...

October 25, 2007 03:26PM
Stein (as with the majority of vocal ID supporters) shows gaping flaws in his scientific knowledge and relies on combination of oratory skills and political spin rather than the aforementioned knowledge to disprove Darwinism. Such as the 'lightning striking a puddle of mud' comment and 'the cell having thousands of moving parts, each of which has to work perfectly'. <br> <br>His comment on 'Darwinism having obvious gaps' is correct, it does have gaps. Darwin himself realized this and stated at the time that this was the case. It has been the study of scientists worldwide for the last 150 years to attempt to fill these gaps in knowledge, some have not been filled, many have. <br> <br>Intelligent design may be an 'effort to fill in some of those gaps' but its a piss-poor effort scientifically. In fact, it isn't Science at all. It's Religion masqueraded as science which is flawed to the core and will not hold up to the smallest amount of scientific scrutiny. In fact I would go as far as to say it is religious propaganda. If the religious community wish to apply scientific logic to a scientific theory that is 150 years old they should, at the very least, hold their own 'scientific research' to the same logic and method otherwise it simply isn't science. <br> <br>It is fair to state that science and religion are not mutually exclusive. You can believe in God as well as evolution. The only problem occurs when you cling too tightly to the scripture in the Bible, particularly Genesis. If you accept the Bible as the word of God as written by man then it is fair to state that the Biblical scripture is subject to man's own fallacies (as stated in the Bible.) <br> <br>The real danger with introducing religion into a Science class is not in your average person learning about ID but your average scientist learning flawed and incorrect scientific method, or even worse, every scientist learning incorrect scientific method which is possible over several generations of indoctrination. Religion is created for accessibility to the average person, Science is not, it is an attempt to thoroughly answer some of the most vexing questions asked by humankind by inspection (not easy to do when you are working with cellular structures that are only nanometers in size) and critical thinking whereas Religion is an attempt to answer the same questions through faith and basic logic. Both Science and Religion have their place in modern day society but they are two very different approaches at the same thing and should not interfere with each other directly. <br> <br>I understand your point about politics Deathclaw, but as to chemistry/biology not being as relevant to everyday life I would pose that many of your everyday technologies that you take for granted have been produced through science, including cars, computers, medicine. Without scientific method you would be hard pushed to find any technology which existed today ranging all the way back to the wheel. Really, science as with religion lies at the core of human society. But you are correct in that chemistry or physics will not directly get your car engine started or your puncture repaired. <br> <br>Religion and power lie hand in hand however, and it is often noted in ANY country in ANY place at ANY time that it is possible to abuse religion directly to garner personal power and wealth. It is no surprise that the Vatican is one of the most wealthy institutions on the planet and the Pope is one of the most influential men politically on the planet also. It is laughable that Stein mentions persecution of scientists, because that is exactly what the church has done for contradicting their way of thinking in the past. Giving the church and religious leaders the means to persecute critical thinking again would be a terrible mistake for humanity to make.
Subject Author Views Posted

Hehe, two hilariously stupid people

Cenatar 1242 October 23, 2007 09:36AM

Intelligent Design = Creationism

infi 779 October 23, 2007 03:04PM

In a sense. But probably not the sense you mean. txt

Isildur 922 October 23, 2007 06:07PM

Contradiction

infi 797 October 24, 2007 09:04AM

I don't understand the contradiction. txt

Isildur 762 October 24, 2007 10:01AM

Re: I don't understand the contradiction. txt

infi 764 October 24, 2007 11:59AM

Re: I don't understand the contradiction. txt

Isildur 855 October 24, 2007 02:01PM

You just called Ben Stein stupid?? n/t

Pro 862 October 23, 2007 03:19PM

He's attacking &quot;academics&quot;

infi 683 October 23, 2007 03:35PM

Lets not go around putting science and academia in the same boat n/t

Lokain 824 October 23, 2007 05:24PM

He's not attacking &quot;academics&quot;

KatistrofiK 774 October 23, 2007 05:38PM

Uhm

Cenatar 891 October 23, 2007 09:35PM

Have you rigorously tested it yourself?

Death_Claw 859 October 24, 2007 04:15AM

Ok, a challenge for you.

Cenatar 903 October 24, 2007 06:17AM

You can't answer his challenge with a challenge.

Pro 781 October 24, 2007 06:25AM

Support what?

Cenatar 806 October 24, 2007 06:46AM

Re: Ok, a challenge for you.

Death_Claw 810 October 24, 2007 07:52AM

Re: Ok, a challenge for you.

Cenatar 743 October 24, 2007 08:06AM

Religion Censors!!! Science Doesn't.

infi 932 October 24, 2007 08:27AM

Chill with the hysterics. n/t

Death_Claw 946 October 24, 2007 08:30AM

You are tossing out some pretty broad topics.

Pro 864 October 24, 2007 08:42AM

Re: You are tossing out some pretty broad topics.

Cenatar 814 October 24, 2007 08:48AM

Re: You are tossing out some pretty broad topics.

MorsGotha 800 October 24, 2007 09:43AM

/agree -nt-

infi 898 October 24, 2007 09:46AM

Agreed what? You haven't said anything of substance.

Pro 897 October 24, 2007 10:21AM

Quite correct. Fradulent scientists get outed. Just like ID has been. -nt-

infi 769 October 24, 2007 11:07AM

ID hasn't been ousted. That's just it.

Pro 945 October 24, 2007 10:20AM

Actually ID has been ousted

infi 842 October 24, 2007 10:23AM

Re: ID hasn't been ousted. That's just it.

MorsGotha 897 October 24, 2007 10:48AM

Re: Religion Censors!!! Science Doesn't.

Isildur 806 October 24, 2007 09:02AM

Are you assuming scientists have no ethics?

infi 851 October 24, 2007 09:12AM

What are you smoking?

Death_Claw 798 October 24, 2007 09:24AM

Every sperm is saaacred. Every sperm is great!

infi 757 October 24, 2007 09:34AM

fyi. txt

Isildur 875 October 24, 2007 10:22AM

I'll buy that. You made a good point -nt

infi 890 October 24, 2007 11:05AM

I'm somewhat against hormonal birth control too.

DurNominator 832 October 24, 2007 11:07AM

Re: fyi. txt

mc_no_u 714 October 25, 2007 04:37PM

You're a high school physics teacher? Dude. Learn to read. txt

Isildur 784 October 24, 2007 10:07AM

And I teach evolution (well) in my biology class.

infi 858 October 24, 2007 10:19AM

Re: And I teach evolution (well) in my biology class.

Isildur 902 October 24, 2007 01:21PM

Ethics are based on society and it's values.

DurNominator 748 October 25, 2007 10:18PM

no one is stifling research.

infi 900 October 24, 2007 07:02AM

More people in this country believe in God than don't.

Death_Claw 733 October 24, 2007 07:55AM

Belief != Fact. My money is with fact.

infi 934 October 24, 2007 08:17AM

This is why I'm agnostic. NT

AA 870 October 24, 2007 08:42AM

Re: Have you rigorously tested it yourself?

MorsGotha 907 October 24, 2007 10:35AM

Wow. Amazingly close-minded. NT

AA 841 October 24, 2007 11:30PM

That's right Prothero, Ben Stein is a fucking retard.

mc_no_u 843 October 23, 2007 06:04PM

Re: That's right Prothero, Ben Stein is a fucking retard.

Pro 800 October 23, 2007 06:11PM

He was valedictorian of Yale Law School. n/t

Death_Claw 906 October 24, 2007 04:04AM

ANd this fact has gone to his head.

infi 884 October 24, 2007 07:04AM

Explain. n/t

Death_Claw 794 October 24, 2007 07:48AM

Explaination

infi 838 October 24, 2007 08:05AM

Which thing did he say that was wrong? n/t

Death_Claw 749 October 24, 2007 08:28AM

We are stifling ID research??? -nt-

infi 633 October 24, 2007 08:30AM

So ellaborate how that isn't correct. You know like, cite a source. n/t

Death_Claw 835 October 24, 2007 08:31AM

Sorry, that is not how it works. It is you who is claiming something(nt)

Cenatar 909 October 24, 2007 08:34AM

No. You are the one that made the initial claim.

Pro 857 October 24, 2007 08:38AM

Grammar, Pro, grammar.

DurNominator 953 October 24, 2007 10:12AM

So we attack the man to refute his stance.

Pro 789 October 24, 2007 11:17AM

It is however a perfect example of what DC and I are talking about.

Pro 842 October 24, 2007 11:21AM

It might have been off topic

DurNominator 800 October 24, 2007 11:49AM

If I consistanty did mix you're and your.

Pro 917 October 24, 2007 04:05PM

He said Stein was full of shit. What's he basing that on? Gut instinct? n/t

Death_Claw 847 October 24, 2007 08:45AM

Opinion, just like Ben Steins.

Cenatar 873 October 24, 2007 08:51AM

You people make me laugh. n/t

Death_Claw 1508 October 24, 2007 08:53AM

The burden of proof is on him (or you)

infi 789 October 24, 2007 08:37AM

Right, take your word for it, I gotcha. In other words you've got nothin. n/t

Death_Claw 915 October 24, 2007 08:45AM

The thing is, the Creationists have got nothing.

DurNominator 1025 October 24, 2007 09:57AM

Then pit the two together.

Pro 962 October 25, 2007 06:59AM

I haven't heard anything that is obviously wrong.

Pro 956 October 24, 2007 08:36AM

That is just hilarious.

Cenatar 827 October 24, 2007 08:46AM

At the very least ID identifies areas of complexity that need exploration.

Death_Claw 847 October 24, 2007 08:49AM

Again, incorrect.

Cenatar 893 October 24, 2007 08:53AM

You really don't know how to read.

Death_Claw 814 October 24, 2007 09:18AM

bullshit

infi 893 October 24, 2007 09:25AM

Thankfully you don't represent the scientific community. n/t

Death_Claw 833 October 24, 2007 09:32AM

I represent the scientific community on a daily basis.

infi 825 October 24, 2007 09:35AM

What do you do? n/t

Death_Claw 819 October 24, 2007 11:03AM

Hah, you're a teacher. Well that explains a thing or two.

Death_Claw 764 October 24, 2007 11:08AM

He get's his orders from the text book and ideas from the

Pro 868 October 24, 2007 11:15AM

I am a biochemistry student at a University level.

Istirith 857 October 27, 2007 06:50AM

Just to clarify (disclaimer)..

Istirith 849 October 27, 2007 06:56AM

Re: You really don't know how to read.

Cenatar 1005 October 24, 2007 09:31AM

His point is that bias against ID excludes them from grants &amp; papers. n/t

Death_Claw 828 October 24, 2007 09:33AM

And you just believe that?

Cenatar 832 October 24, 2007 09:35AM

WHy don't they publish their own journal? -nt- =)

infi 993 October 24, 2007 09:36AM

Because they can't get the funding god damn it.

Pro 843 October 24, 2007 11:34AM

How ironic.

MorsGotha 906 October 24, 2007 11:39AM

Are you saying that...

Cenatar 876 October 24, 2007 11:47AM

Kozjabozja n/t

Uli 780 October 24, 2007 12:34PM

Tell me one thing

DurNominator 848 October 24, 2007 12:19PM

I don't know.

Pro 862 October 24, 2007 05:14PM

Re: I don't know.

DurNominator 980 October 25, 2007 01:46AM

How many times must it be said?

Pro 913 October 25, 2007 10:41AM

The crux of the problem

DurNominator 1436 October 25, 2007 09:37PM

I didn't say I believed him.

Death_Claw 816 October 24, 2007 11:15AM

The bias against ID is the exact same as the bias against alchemy. NT

MorsGotha 855 October 24, 2007 09:48AM

Good thing Alchemists over came that.

Pro 872 October 24, 2007 11:16AM

ID papers are excluded because the peers who reviewed them thought

DurNominator 805 October 24, 2007 10:20AM

it's not a theory

infi 809 October 24, 2007 10:22AM

Theories are ideas that can be tested or

Pro 800 October 24, 2007 11:13AM

I've never read of anything that

Pro 807 October 24, 2007 11:12AM

The outside guidance is not a requirement.

DurNominator 896 October 24, 2007 11:37AM

I make cookies out of flour and sugar because that's what's needed.

Pro 850 October 25, 2007 06:53AM

Science built itself a strong foundation...

infi 731 October 24, 2007 08:50AM

Swticharoo.

Pro 939 October 24, 2007 11:28AM

I like your wording. Pretty much in line with what Ben was saying.

Pro 857 October 24, 2007 11:32AM

Plenty of people with credentials are (ideologically speaking) idiots.

mc_no_u 803 October 25, 2007 04:36PM

Don't you get it, Pro?

Odrirg 939 October 24, 2007 04:47AM

Sir?

Cenatar 873 October 24, 2007 06:49AM

I wouldn't have a problem....

Odrirg 773 October 24, 2007 07:08AM

Incorrect

Cenatar 898 October 24, 2007 07:19AM

As a high school physics teacher teaching biology

infi 839 October 24, 2007 07:38AM

The ultimate irony

infi 796 October 24, 2007 08:59AM

Once again proving the &quot;evolution fanboys&quot; are nutty. n/t

Death_Claw 821 October 24, 2007 09:34AM

Good argument. You clearly show you know how science works in this thread(nt)

Cenatar 1002 October 24, 2007 09:38AM

I may be off here, but what I think he i saying is that.

Pro 898 October 24, 2007 10:27AM

Yeah.

Death_Claw 799 October 24, 2007 11:03AM

Although...

MorsGotha 877 October 24, 2007 11:15AM

Re: Although...

Death_Claw 985 October 24, 2007 11:17AM

Re: Although...

MorsGotha 867 October 24, 2007 11:25AM

What're you blathering about?

Death_Claw 852 October 24, 2007 11:30AM

I was quite clear. nt

MorsGotha 776 October 24, 2007 11:31AM

Right, keep fighting your straw man. n/t

Death_Claw 963 October 24, 2007 11:41AM

A straw man is easy to refute. You have not even tried yet. nt

MorsGotha 839 October 24, 2007 11:52AM

Ok. That wasn't me in the post above refuting your point or anything. n/t

Death_Claw 797 October 24, 2007 11:53AM

Bear in mind Ben Stein says specifically he doesn't believe in ID.

Death_Claw 749 October 24, 2007 11:27AM

Re: Bear in mind Ben Stein says specifically he doesn't believe in ID.

MorsGotha 769 October 24, 2007 11:31AM

What do you mean?

Cenatar 816 October 24, 2007 11:39AM

So you track scientists like many people do Politicians?

Pro 865 October 25, 2007 06:50AM

What?

Cenatar 819 October 25, 2007 10:33AM

I'm not the one who has the onus to prove anything.

Pro 842 October 25, 2007 06:32PM

Actually I am an theory of gravity fanboy. It explains stuff. ID doesn't. NT

MorsGotha 824 October 24, 2007 09:59AM

What does that have to do with this thread?

Death_Claw 911 October 24, 2007 11:12AM

Bullshit again.

Cenatar 770 October 24, 2007 11:42AM

Have you watched the movie? Last I heard it wasn't out yet. n/t

Death_Claw 909 October 24, 2007 11:44AM

I've watched the trailer and interviews. It is pretty open with its views(nt)

Cenatar 765 October 24, 2007 11:45AM

A question or two for Pro and Death Claw

Cenatar 770 October 24, 2007 11:30AM

What does the Onion have to do with this?

Death_Claw 1006 October 24, 2007 11:39AM

So you are saying you don't know what ID is?

Cenatar 895 October 24, 2007 11:44AM

That's the point.

Death_Claw 839 October 24, 2007 11:51AM

In your humble opinion, Is ID science? nt

MorsGotha 755 October 24, 2007 11:53AM

Wow. Whoosh. Right over your head. n/t

Death_Claw 873 October 24, 2007 11:54AM

Actually, he has a point. Do you think ID is science?(nt)

Cenatar 853 October 24, 2007 11:56AM

On the contrary, this is the very heart of the problem...

MorsGotha 734 October 24, 2007 11:56AM

No it doesn't.

Death_Claw 702 October 24, 2007 12:01PM

A good exercise in rationality:

MorsGotha 820 October 24, 2007 12:06PM

But I am free to choose whether I want to fund your research or not.

DurNominator 760 October 24, 2007 12:06PM

Therein lies my point. It should be up to the people who pay for it.

Death_Claw 794 October 24, 2007 12:21PM

Who do you think is the most competent party to make the funding decisions?

DurNominator 725 October 24, 2007 12:27PM

You don't see a problem with an unelected minority spending public dollars?

Death_Claw 704 October 24, 2007 12:31PM

The people do control where their money goes.

DurNominator 825 October 24, 2007 12:46PM

Right, and Stein is suggesting that process isn't working correctly. n/t

Death_Claw 1454 October 24, 2007 12:49PM

Does Stein has something that he considers as a better idea? nt

DurNominator 836 October 24, 2007 01:10PM

I guess we should wait to see the movie. n/t

Death_Claw 863 October 24, 2007 01:11PM

It is not about money,

Cenatar 810 October 24, 2007 12:49PM

I don't like the way our education system does things.

Death_Claw 896 October 24, 2007 12:58PM

Re: I don't like the way our education system does things.

Cenatar 906 October 24, 2007 01:05PM

Way to miss the point. Heheh. Read my post again.

Death_Claw 783 October 24, 2007 01:10PM

Let me try that again in English.

Death_Claw 880 October 24, 2007 01:14PM

Re: Way to miss the point. Heheh. Read my post again.

Cenatar 856 October 24, 2007 01:15PM

A school course is not some predefined static thing.

Death_Claw 885 October 24, 2007 01:25PM

Ah, ok.

Cenatar 829 October 24, 2007 01:41PM

That's an internally inconsistent statement. n/t

Death_Claw 827 October 24, 2007 02:36PM

Both ethics and gymnastics have place in the educational system.

DurNominator 866 October 24, 2007 01:20PM

Ultimately that is your *opinion*.

Death_Claw 800 October 24, 2007 01:32PM

I sort of summed up all sports into gymnastics.

DurNominator 842 October 24, 2007 02:17PM

Whoosh. n/t

Death_Claw 929 October 24, 2007 02:37PM

Actually

Cenatar 858 October 24, 2007 12:11PM

Great, we've come to an agreement.

Death_Claw 814 October 24, 2007 12:24PM

Then again

Cenatar 883 October 24, 2007 12:29PM

In your humble opinion, Is ID science? nt

MorsGotha 839 October 24, 2007 11:46AM

I don't care if it's science or not.

Pro 997 October 25, 2007 06:41PM

I'm just curious..

Istirith 873 October 25, 2007 07:18PM

My only real problem with this debate is the participants

ExPaladin 847 October 25, 2007 02:20AM

Re: My only real problem with this debate is the participants

Death_Claw 926 October 25, 2007 03:43AM

Re: My only real problem with this debate is the participants

Istirith 849 October 27, 2007 04:31PM

Some points to raise on Stein...

Istirith 806 October 25, 2007 03:26PM

Also, I'd be interested to see this movie.

Istirith 911 October 25, 2007 03:41PM



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