Posted by Nepenthe(IMM) on August 2, 2000 at 19:43:27:
In Reply to: Hmm... agreed, sort of. posted by The Arcane(VIP) on August 2, 2000 at 17:05:49:
I have some mixed feelings.
> The Sylvan powers are the best pure-PK powers in the game, and best-suited for the so-called "elite" player. At the higher echelons of skill, and especially at higher levels, the real key is keeping your foe from escaping. Beating them such that they have to flee is generally trivial, especially with the advantage of surprise and preparation. Keeping them from fleeing such that they die is tricker. As someone who's played nothing but Ragers and conjurers in the past year, I can certainly testify to that.
That's true, if:
A) You intend to try to kill one or maybe two people at a time, depending on your class. There are some exceptions to this, but in general if you start swarming one person the others are going to clear out, if they believe themselves to be in trouble.
B) You are willing to wait for them to "come to you" for the most part. Again there are exceptions.
Obviously the RP restrictions Sylvan lays on you are something to consider, too. They can't look at as much of their range and say 'Hell yeah I'm gonna kill that guy' as most people. . .or at least, not for long.
> What Sylvan gives the player won't necessarily compensate for lack of skill in the sense that transform or deathblow would, enabling them to outlast or outhit an opponent that they would otherwise be unable to, but rather gives something that's relatively useless to the mediocre player, but incomparable for the "elite."
My mixed feelings come in here in that the Sylvan powers are a dream for an 'elite' player to kill those in that 'almost elite' spectrum, wherein they aren't good enough to beat you but might be good enough to get away. . .but I think most of the best either have contingency plans before risking wall/swarm or enter prepared to win. Still, we all make mistakes often enough, and I have to admit that elite vs. elite the Sylvan powers are damned good for capitalizing on those.
> Insect/wall are like a toned-down force duel... they won't do you a whole lot of good if you can't win a fight with the guy you want to kill, but if you can beat him down, they VASTLY increase the odds that it'll be a kill (whereas force duel made it certain). In the hands of a very good player, this sort of ability is genuinely sick, especially when many classes are created and balanced taking into account their inability to keep people from fleeing (old-school paladins, shamans, etc.).
I'd have to say, first, that the classes that most strongly would benefit from the Sylvan powers, in general, can't be Sylvan or are so rarely. Whether or not you consider that a mitigating factor is a matter of personal bias. Probably, neither you or I would have any difficulty with the RP standard to be a Sylvan whatever if we set our minds to it.
Second, one important advantage the Sylvan powers do have over force duel is that you, the Sylvan, have some very good escape chances yourself if you find you've underestimated your opponent. For druids and rangers this is even more extreme. Often enough in the brief heyday of force duel we witnessed someone who thought they had a sure thing find out otherwise to their detriment.
> I can think of no cabal powers that I'd rather have than Sylvan cabal powers. Do you disagree?
To some degree, it depends on the character. I do like the sylvan powers a lot, but I think each of Scarab, Entropy, and Empire are very attractive in their way -- though I admit I might not think that about Empire if I weren't frankly sure I could end up at least Sect Leader if I picked a character and stuck with them long enough. Empire seems to go through regular enough droughts that any above-average-skill player who can RP worth a damn can take the position of their choice during them. I used to think the Arbiter powers were really nice for picking on the elite because the elite tended to play spellcasters, but I no longer see manacles as the death sentence or even fight-winner I once did, even against invokers. I like the Master powers quite a bit if you think in terms of fighting groups of 3-6 and killing at least one, rather than one shot, one kill. Battle is. . .an experience.
I think how much you crave the Sylvan kind of powers as an elite player also depends to a degree on what your goal is in playing the game. As a newbie, maybe your goal is to die less. Then maybe you start thinking about killing some people, and so on. At each stage you're really trying to become a better player. In general, the way you go about this is by trying to kill others and avoid dying -- you learn in conflict, because obviously the other players don't just want to sit back and let you kill them. I'm not really sure you can do that as an elite anymore though, because many of the players present so little challenge that they might as well be sitting back and letting you kill them. Occasionally, there is definitely the urge to pick the most powerful combination you can imagine and see what you can do with it, but I think in general there is more the urge to pick something that you're not entirely sure is that good and try it out, or maybe pick something you think could be good but haven't ever tried and see what you can make of it. In my case, at least, most times I make mention of what I've been playing (or more likely it leaks out, somehow), if you dig back in the forum backissues around the time the character was created, you'll find people complaining about how weak whatever is. I see that and think "I don't think they're right. . ..let's find out."
Another way of looking at it: if you always have good ways to keep people from running the hell away when you're whipping them, probably, you'll never get as good as you could be at tracking them down again afterwards. You know you've had a good night with your tracking/finding/pursuing skills when someone breaks down into half-coherent swearing and claims that you have eyes of intrigue.
Did any of that make any sense?