Re: hmmmm

Re: hmmmm:
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Posted by Saerin on February 9, 2000 at 17:50:40:

In Reply to: that's not the reason... posted by Shokai(IMM) on February 9, 2000 at 16:25:55:

> > No, the point was to hold him up as an example of how things should be done.

> It's double-edged. It said Justin was great, and inbetween the lines said 'and the current arbiter immortals aren't'...That's unfair, and damned harsh. I've said everything else about that point in other posts.

There are people who have had a less than positive experience with the
arbiter immortals. You can't invalidate that. How the person chooses to
voice his disatisfaction is what I believe Graatch, and the Old Arbiter
are talking about.

They aren't advocating the usual bitching and moaning.. and mindless flames
in regards to any of the immortals. They are talking about having something
of a rational discussion about some of the things that do concern them.

In regard to his above statement and reading between the lines... the above
statement could be taken in a few ways. It almost depends on your perspective.
You are choosing to look at it from the standpoint of an imm who often reads
crap like "bria is the worst imm I've ever seen". I may not look at it from
that standpoint.

> Two things, 1) The Arbiter leadership should be harsh...they're not a fluffy happy cabal. They're an organization of order, if you can't stand rigid order...don't play an Arbiter.

My entire time as an Arbiter I heard Bria speak once. Something along the lines
of read you notes now. That's it. I might criticize that and say 'why not interact
with your cabal a bit more. People tend to have a much better time if the imms
watching over the cabal take an active interest. Now, like the old arbiter.. I saw
this from Justin. It can't hurt to look at the things Justin did well, and see if
they can fit into your role. It may not fit into Astein's, but why not Bria's?
Why might my above remark be considered as some sort of attack?

> 2) That's not what killed Knights, I'm argueably one of the nicer immortals around, and was even more of a softie back with Knights...if you want to point to an immortal flaw that killed Knights it was that we were too lenient, and let too many people slip. As well as people missing the point of Knights completely towards the end.

I may not be the cause, but it surely contributed to it. I do remember some of the
things you said regarding the purpose of the Knight cabal. The other Knight immortals
seemed to take a much different perspective. In that sense, I might have suggested
the three of you get on the same page.. and really define it.

> The manner of the protest. I could've just posted 'BITE ME!' in response to this, how would you have reacted? Poorly I'd imagine, that's about how constructive the immortals react when our criticism comes in the form of a slap to the face, whether you see it as such or not *shrug*, however I assure you, criticism is fine, even appriciated...telling us we suck, or that we're the worst immortal around, or that we should just quit to make people happy...isn't.

I think the intelligent people realize this, Shok. I don't recall Graatch advocating
this kind of shit.

> > Why can't we have a sence of mutual respect? Why does it have to be this "us vrs. them" mentality? It's amazing how people respond if they're treated like human beings. Not all players are immature cheaters just like not all Imms are cheaters with WIZI out to ruin your day.

> You'd be amazed, immortals don't think that about the whole of the playerbase, we're fully aware that it's mostly a few squeaky wheels clogging the machine...the problem, and what causes you to feel the 'us v them' mentality is that those are the ones we deal with almost all day...it gets tiresome.

> >
> >

> > No, but defending a fellow immortal for no other reason than he is an immortal is. Just like there are good players and bad players on CF there are also good immortals and bad immortals.

> Really? I think that defending an immortal that has proven themselves just because they are an immortal is perfectly fine. Most immortals that are in Asgaard over level 53 has proven themselves (no slight to 53- they've proven themselves as well), and deserve to be where they are. If you have contention with them deserving to be there, tough. As for 'bad immortals' there are ways to deal with them in the game, namely email to the Imps.

They have worked their asses of to get to where they are, BUT that doesn't mean that they have everything
regarding the mud worked out. I few constructive voices can be quite helpful.. if I read it right above
you agree, and you are taking issue with all the other crap.

> As for the complaints about Arbiters in general, or complaints about Arbiter immortals...as I stated further down on the forum, if you don't like the way it's being done...roll one up, immort and try to change it...or as Cyradia put it kindly 'shut the hell up'.

And you wonder where the us vs them mentality comes from? Shut the hell up? If you are going to bitch, whine
and moan.. sure shut the hell up... if you have something meaningful to offer, I'd say otherwise. Unfortunately,
we all know in what direction most people are likely to go.

Follow Ups:

One big run-on sentence Cyradia(IMM) 18:52:47 2/9/2000 (3)
- Re: One big run-on sentence Saerin 10:26:55 2/10/2000 (1)
  - Agreed. With text. Graatch (VIP) 10:57:00 2/10/2000 (0)
- the <== What's that word mean again?(n/t) Dazed and Confused 06:21:15 2/10/2000 (0)

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Comments:	> > > No, the point was to hold him up as an example of how things should be done. > > It's double-edged. It said Justin was great, and inbetween the lines said 'and the current arbiter immortals aren't'...That's unfair, and damned harsh. I've said everything else about that point in other posts. > There are people who have had a less than positive experience with the > arbiter immortals. You can't invalidate that. How the person chooses to > voice his disatisfaction is what I believe Graatch, and the Old Arbiter > are talking about. > They aren't advocating the usual bitching and moaning.. and mindless flames > in regards to any of the immortals. They are talking about having something > of a rational discussion about some of the things that do concern them. > In regard to his above statement and reading between the lines... the above > statement could be taken in a few ways. It almost depends on your perspective. > You are choosing to look at it from the standpoint of an imm who often reads > crap like "bria is the worst imm I've ever seen". I may not look at it from > that standpoint. > > > Two things, 1) The Arbiter leadership should be harsh...they're not a fluffy happy cabal. They're an organization of order, if you can't stand rigid order...don't play an Arbiter. > My entire time as an Arbiter I heard Bria speak once. Something along the lines > of read you notes now. That's it. I might criticize that and say 'why not interact > with your cabal a bit more. People tend to have a much better time if the imms > watching over the cabal take an active interest. Now, like the old arbiter.. I saw > this from Justin. It can't hurt to look at the things Justin did well, and see if > they can fit into your role. It may not fit into Astein's, but why not Bria's? > Why might my above remark be considered as some sort of attack? > > 2) That's not what killed Knights, I'm argueably one of the nicer immortals around, and was even more of a softie back with Knights...if you want to point to an immortal flaw that killed Knights it was that we were too lenient, and let too many people slip. As well as people missing the point of Knights completely towards the end. > I may not be the cause, but it surely contributed to it. I do remember some of the > things you said regarding the purpose of the Knight cabal. The other Knight immortals > seemed to take a much different perspective. In that sense, I might have suggested > the three of you get on the same page.. and really define it. > > > The manner of the protest. I could've just posted 'BITE ME!' in response to this, how would you have reacted? Poorly I'd imagine, that's about how constructive the immortals react when our criticism comes in the form of a slap to the face, whether you see it as such or not shrug, however I assure you, criticism is fine, even appriciated...telling us we suck, or that we're the worst immortal around, or that we should just quit to make people happy...isn't. > I think the intelligent people realize this, Shok. I don't recall Graatch advocating > this kind of shit. > > > Why can't we have a sence of mutual respect? Why does it have to be this "us vrs. them" mentality? It's amazing how people respond if they're treated like human beings. Not all players are immature cheaters just like not all Imms are cheaters with WIZI out to ruin your day. > > You'd be amazed, immortals don't think that about the whole of the playerbase, we're fully aware that it's mostly a few squeaky wheels clogging the machine...the problem, and what causes you to feel the 'us v them' mentality is that those are the ones we deal with almost all day...it gets tiresome. > > > > > > > > > > No, but defending a fellow immortal for no other reason than he is an immortal is. Just like there are good players and bad players on CF there are also good immortals and bad immortals. > > Really? I think that defending an immortal that has proven themselves just because they are an immortal is perfectly fine. Most immortals that are in Asgaard over level 53 has proven themselves (no slight to 53- they've proven themselves as well), and deserve to be where they are. If you have contention with them deserving to be there, tough. As for 'bad immortals' there are ways to deal with them in the game, namely email to the Imps. > They have worked their asses of to get to where they are, BUT that doesn't mean that they have everything > regarding the mud worked out. I few constructive voices can be quite helpful.. if I read it right above > you agree, and you are taking issue with all the other crap. > > > As for the complaints about Arbiters in general, or complaints about Arbiter immortals...as I stated further down on the forum, if you don't like the way it's being done...roll one up, immort and try to change it...or as Cyradia put it kindly 'shut the hell up'. > And you wonder where the us vs them mentality comes from? Shut the hell up? If you are going to bitch, whine > and moan.. sure shut the hell up... if you have something meaningful to offer, I'd say otherwise. Unfortunately, > we all know in what direction most people are likely to go.

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