Posted by The First Apostle on September 19, 2000 at 08:15:16:
In Reply to: You contradict yourself. posted by Graatch(VIP) on September 19, 2000 at 07:20:22:
> > Honor is honor is honor is honor. The basic principle of 'honor' doesn't change...regardless of which god presides over it. The biggest thing about honor, is that it's something that comes from within, not something that another entity governs over you. You make your choices and decide if they're honorable or not....if they're not, expect a smack down.
> If Honor comes from within, from yourself, and you make your choices thinking what you are doing is honorable, then how can you be smacked down?
That's a strong point in the real world. In the fantasy world this external force is manifested with the
presence of Balgrimnr. This becomes the accountability factor.
> Being smacked down means someone is judging you and in fact their concept of honor does govern you.
Balgrimnr's/Cador's concept do govern their followers. However, these are the basic principles
that Shokai is eluding to above. What tends to be different are people's personal honor.
> Otherwise there would be no "smack down" other than from your own conscience. You can't say honor is from within and not from without and then say a force from without will smack you down for not being honorable. What you meant to say, perhaps, is that in most cases it comes from within, and on the hard questions the outside force is willing to let you do as you believe right, but for most of the less complex questions, you will, in fact, be held to a standard set by someone else.
I don't entirely agree Graatch. Remember that this external force may hold you accountable to upholding
your own beliefs while at the same time upholding the common tenets of honor (and the religion if applicable).
It's a matter of being true to yourself, and being true to your own personal honor. If you are a follower
of Balgrimnr he will hold you true to your own beliefs. If you don't remain true to your beliefs, your going
to find yourself in a bit of trouble.
> As for the belief that honor can't be explained and either you have it or you don't, that's also not really true.
To the first point.. honor is not that easy a concept to explain because it usually requires something of people
that they haven't figured out for themselves, and that usually has to do with core values. What do you believe?
> The problem is that everybody who has spoken about it in this game has either changed their definitions with time and circumstances
I have to disagree. Concepts of honor have not changed. The people who truly have an idea about what honor is are still
there. What changed over time.. I believe.. had to do with the changing Knight mission, and the lack of stable, focused
leadership.
> or doesn't want others to copy them so they beg off by saying it's too amorphous for definition.
You can attach a simplistic definition to anything, and people will sit there and intellectually understand it,
but there can always be much more.. a deeper part of it. This is definitely the case with honor.
> If the words fail you, one can always simply give examples. But I am confident that the concept is definable with language.
Oy, Graatch.. language can only take you so far... and believe it or not.. language can be quite
a barrier.
> You and the other immortals just dont want to because you fear hearing it over and over and over again. Understandable, but a tad dishonest.
Alright Graatch.. I leave you to your crusade, but suffice it to say your full of shit here. In reading
many of Shokai's posts on the topic, I can tell you he's left quite a good definition in his posts. Too
bad if you can't see it.