Posted by Graatch on January 12, 2000 at 08:29:20:
In Reply to: Re: What ragers did you play? text posted by Cethern on January 12, 2000 at 04:39:43:
> It's not easy for a warrior to find a hero invoker unprepared. It's not like you've got to be out ranking and something This argument goes for any hero of any class and any cabal. Any hero can stay in their cabal, or go to far away places exploring, or whatever. If you *choose* to just walk around Eastern road, or galadon, looking for people in a deliberate attempt to fight constantly, that's fine, but don't make it seem like not finding a mage is any more likely than not finding a warrior or assassin or shaman or druid or whatever, at hero levels. I honestly don't believe I ever killed you on my own. Possibly I did at the giant, while you were fighting I don't remember if you personally killed me either, at hero. You did when I was at 36th level and you were at 41 (you stayed at 41 for a long time if I remember correctly) and you simply bashed me to death. (No bash protection for invokers until 38th level, and even then not until they have taken the time to perfect a first order shield.) But the fact is, Pincer takes three rounds, by the time I was middle-aged I missed My experience says othewise. I played an axe spec with gorgidas and an invoker with diarmuid, and from both sides I saw it as I outlined it, with the double lag if the invoker cast a spell that lagged him and I pincered, or vice versa. Perhaps there is something else entirely going on, but the fact was that I (as diarmuid) or my foe (as gorgidas) couldn't do anything for three-five rounds, given the circumstances. I say that because I've lashed people Again, I think you are missing the point of the concern here. It's not that it should a complete no-brainer for either side to kill the other. It's not a question of actually being able to get the final kill. I'm discussing the ability to pretty much do anything at all. Yes, mages have the ability to get away in the end better than warriors. But that's part of the *class*, it has spells for that purpose. That's just the way it works, and the fighting classes dont have the quick get-away option. (Except vanish of course). But that has nothing to do with this conversation. We're talking whether one class can fight/effect another. Invokers couldn't affect berserke warriors. I would say half or more of the times a mage out in the Again, the ability of a spell using class to get away is part of the class, just like it can locate objects, or what have you. Having ways of preventing people from getting away are part of alot of classes, and that's why, but that has nothing to do with this conversation. You seem to think a warrior can bloodthirst anywhere without risk. It's pretty easy to do in the village or Seeing as how 9/10 of rager fights tend to take place somewhere on/near the river at masters, in galadon, on the eastern road, in the dwarf forest, in old thalos, in the rager cabal, I'd say your concern here is a bit unfounded. Ragers can and do thirst pretty much with impunity anywhere well frequented, and that's where most fights happen. It's rare that some rager posse goes to the Octagon tower and kills the group of exploring masters. No, the fights take place near the crossroads, or in the dwarf forest, or osendrelle fields near tar valon, or in galadon, or on the river. And except for the unlucky sighting of the enforcer or the slayer, you pretty much can do what you want and thirst as much as you want. I just looked at a log you posted where you complain it took six people to If you read my post, you saw that I specifically said that combining a thief with an assassin or some other lag-skill-class is a very effective combo and sucks for the victim. I specifically said that anyone would die there, and should. So reread my post and stop accusing me of exactly the oppposite of what I wrote. > You brought up Takashimi taking on five hero pets or something, but if you look at those longs, he didn't manage to kill anyone. I was pretty Tak killed one of them, but I could be mistaken, I don't have the log in front of me now. But he killed like five hero beasts and sent two other sanc'd and healed heros packing, two or three times. Yeah, he beat them up a few times when he found them Actually, wasn't it the unprepared and half-dead bard that died? And his kicks are better at lagging someone than any warrior > > This statement alone is so rediculous I won't even comment on it. 100 hours of area spells, not one got through. I don't know what you are calling rediculous. It's a fact, in about 135 hours as a hero, I cast spells in all my fights. In not *one* fight with a berseker rager (and there were *lots*, we're talking hundreds of rounds here) did a spell of my go through spellbane. EVERY SINGLE SPELL was spellbaned. Is that rediculous? Yes, that's the point. As I said originally, it has since been lessened in effectiveness, I saw one spell actually go through area spellbane a few weeks ago. (Nepenthe's comment notwithstanding, I have no idea personally what the code says, I defer to him in that matter). And your statement "are you never supposed to die alone" has no bearing in this discussion. It refers to nothing I said, so I have no idea why you wrote it, let alone there. How "not dying alone" is related to no spells going through spellbane ever is a mystery. The point was, area spellbane was 100% effective, rendering the invoker (the LONE invoker) virtually powerless. > >Oh, and god forbid you were dualing two mondurian axes, so you were hitting me on my vuln, those deathblows would *really* hurt. (Whereas my > Few people can wield two mondurains. They weigh 35 pounds I believe. Gee, I'm sorry, so you can wield just one weapon on my vuln rather than two. You miss the forest for the trees here. I don't know why I thought you were an arial. It's been a while. Wide array of vulnerabilities? Why do batle hero warriors have more vulnerabilities than battle hero thieves, or bards? Or Entropy warriors? Or whatever? They are what they are what they are. I've never Lots of reasons. First: you battle hero warriors go *looking* for fights. Master heros generally dont, that's the whole difference in rp. Rager heros are *trying* to mix it up, and take many more chances than the hero mages. That is the point, you are Battle-Ragers. You like battle. You like rage. Second: spellcasters can get away during a fight with a spell. That's just how it is, they give up the ability to fight anytime, anywhere, without need for preparation (i.e. warriors) and in return they get the ability to get away pretty quickly. That's the nature of the spell/commune classes. Third: yes, the rager heros get ganbanged by empire alot. And by masters too. So? > I mentioned rager honor beacause there are two places say, three of us could attack you at once and not have it frowned on. At masters I fail to see the point of this entire paragraph. We were talking about invokers fighting one on one with berserker ragers. This doesn't address that. > > That's simply not how CF is set up right now. Every class can not fight every other race/class/cabal and succeed. Giving every single race except maybe I am so tired of this. Every single time I discuss this and say that every class should be at least somewhat able to fight every other, it DOES NOT INCLUDE HEALERS. I always say that healers are the exception. I guess I say it so often I didn't think I needed to repeat it again, but evidently not. Yes, a healer can't really fight every class, but they are HEALERS. They aren't supposed to. I'm talking every other class. Every other class is a potential pk class. An invoker is *based* on being a damage-dealing class. On commanding the elementals. Just because it can also shield itself and others doesn't change that. It adds to it. BEing an invoker is not being a healer, it's not a pure support/survival class. A lone invoker is supposed to be able to harm its foes, to greater/lesser degrees depending on the foe. But the lone invoker cannot harm at all a berserker rager. (*sigh* yes, he can harm with snowstorm, a little. And with the occasional spell that now goes through spellbane, which it didn't when diarmuid was alive). How many ragers died because you made quicksand outside the village? Here are a few of your spells from a log > Reuschlein yells 'Die, Diarmuid, you sorcerous dog!' Funny, neither of these two were ragers and neither were in quicksand. To answer your question, most of the people in ragers I fought were either arial or cloud -- Takashimi, Taishanrawr, S-something (Cloud axe spec), etc, and quicksand was useless for them. FOr those not flying, like nesam, I had to flee/recall at about 150 hps and he was at near perfect health because he spellbaned all 8 of my spells, and was hitting me four or five times per round, plus the three or four free hits on each spellbane. > Not bad for things that could hit a whole groupful. Uh, nova isn't an area spell, it doesn't just hit the entire other group, it's a targeted spell. And hiroj didn't die. And Reuschlein was alone. (And not sanc'd, his resistance was down, etc. There was nothing special about it.) Yes, I saw lots of mangles and lower in your logs, but they always did phenominal things to mobs, Yes, somehow a spell that did << Considering the group killing that takes place on CF, the fact that your chances of surviving a group attack is far higher I don't know, I'm pretty sure I'd have died in the fight that takashimi sent them all fleeing multiple times. And the greater survival chance for a mage is based pretty much on his ability to simply leave the scene, and that's a basic difference between the fighting and casting/communing classes. You can still affect the others. The invoker cant affect you. Honestly, how many times do you think you died in a one on one fight? How many times did you die period I don't remember how many times I died, one on one, to rangers or warriors or assassins, before I had a bearcharge/bash protection at 38 (after perfecting a shield as well.) Lots. After that, at hero, I don't remember how many, but it happened, and obviously more than you think. Some of it was due to the newness of the rager changes. I all of a sudden was facing someone who was immune to everything I could do, and was hasted to boot. I delete Diarmuid when he had about 350 hours I think. I dont remember exctly. > Should a defender rager complain that a whole class can nullify them? (Invokers) > Your cone of cold === OBLITERATES === Gees! Hey, one of my spells actually worked. That's nice to see. And lets talk numbers here. Berserkers are what, 75% of the cabal? So 75% are out. Then the scouts with spell dodging, that's what, another 10%? That's alot of people I cant really do much to. And here in your example with Gees, you completely misuse the word "nullify". I don't nullify him, or the class of defenders. I can harm them, just like they can harm me. Those two casts you showed mean I was sitting there for five or six rounds already. That means I got to hit him for one oblit and one demolish, and he gets five or six rounds to sit there and hit me with 5-8 attacks, per round. And each attack has a chance for deathblow. Oh, he's hasted, so that's more like 7-10 attacks per round, if he's dual wielding, each with the chance for deathblow. That's the point, who can do more damage, knock off enough hp's, faster. I did those two. he's doing it in smaller pieces, but he has alot more chances to do it. Plush, if he uses crushing or whatever the h2h lag skill is, or cranial, or pincer, or lash, or legsweep, or whatever, then he has even more time to do it to me, and I have fewer chances to do it to him. So lets use nullify properly. Berserkers nullified invokers because invokes were unable to do anything. Invokers don't nullify defenders, because defenders are pefectly capable of still doing their things, their skills, and they will work. Whether they work *enough* to kill the invoker, is another story, and depends on his equ, his damroll, his skill, etc etc etc. > That was three or four rounds. What if you'd used avalanche? He's a svirf. Avalanche has just as long a lag, if I remember correctly. And, of course, can only be used in the mountains. I don't think the dwarf forest or the river outside masters counts as mountains. And if gees was using maces, or hands, or mondurian axes, etc, then he was hitting *my* vuln. Plus your scourage right before that weakened him so much he couldn't Plenty did. Maces for starters. boneshatter and cranial. (Boneshatter making me unable to wield a weapon if my hands weren't charged, or lost their charge, as well as reducing my dex). Cranial especially. Whip/flail did it once. Axes did it. Point is, if they have some +str equ, they will keep their weapons even if I scourge, and then it's just a race to see who gets more damage on the other, pretty much. > You can't have a group of such widely varried race/class/cabal choices and not have everyone be vulnerable to certain things. Again, stop ignoring what I wrote. I said that. POint is, being more susceptible to another class' skills is not the same as being totally powerless against it. Each class (except healer!) should and generally is able to fight every other class, to some extent. Yes, it's harder for some than for others, in some matchups, but everyone can do *something*, if not enough to kill. That's not the case with invokers and berserkers. I would bet you fought Obviously. That's the point. Couldn't do anything to berserker ragers. I still say you can defeat a berserker villager. Well, you said something similar in the first post -- you said there was a hoard of invokers, all doing well. I asked for all this huge bands' names, etc. You never responded. So, I still say a lone invoker couldn't take a lone berserker, given standard circumstances. And by the way, lets not forget that most of the invoker power spells are area spells, so if the invoker somehow got the rager in a place of lots of high level mobs so the rager couldn't thirst, the invoker cant use *his* spells either! His cone, or pillar, or geyser, would hit and draw in the big mob just as well as bloodthirst would. MEaning the invoker would need to use directed-only spells. And guess what? They would be spellbaned too, just like the old days. yeah, it's real good for invokers fighting berserker ragers. *sarcasm* Not every spell Yes, it was. In the *hundreds* of spells I cast, not one, not ONE, went through. And as I've already said, I think, and was told, this was changed a bit. Now, I see one in ten or so go through. You cannot bloodthirst everywhere at any time. No, but you can do it *during* combat. Can I immolate in combat? No. Can I transform in combat? No. Can I cast improve invis in combat? No. But you can thirst the moment you see the invoker in the area. You can thirst the moment the fight starts, assuming he caught you sleeping somewhere. You can resist in combat. You get your deathblows, obviously. Quicksand is huge. Yes, quicksand is nice. But there are lots of places you can't put it. And it doesn't affect all the cloud giants or arial ragers. (and check for youorself, you'll see that the majority of the ragers are arial or cloud.) But being able to keep someone there, which is what quicksand does, is meaningless if you can't do anything to the person caught there. Which you can't, when it's a berserker rager. You can stay there till the cows come home, like I did with nesam, or takashimi, and you'll just die. Because when you catch them i a quicksand, or just stand and fight them, one on one, your spells get baned, hurting you, and they of course are hitting you often and hard. Ice storm makes it worse. Yes, the occasional decimate! or EVISCERATE is nice. Once every three or four rounds though? Come on, it's not going to make a difference. It might if my other spells were going through, but they dont. Some of your spells Perhaps, but that's not the point. You're talking about fighting a rager who isn't using his skill. What's more, the same goes for an invoker who isnt flying, you can just walk up and trip or legsweep or whatever. We are talking game balance here, so we're talking about each class using their powers. Thirsting ragers are not balanced with respect to invokers at the least. The chance of finding a I disagree. I can't make myself fly during combat. YOu can thirst during combat. I can't make myself fly if I have no potions or staff or whatever. You can thirst anywhere, anytime. (If you choose.) You can thirst as soon as you see a foe coming. I can't make myself fly with my potion of evasion if I'm fighting some mob, or someone else. Sylvan invokers are particularly nasty. Improved invis can give you a good Sylvan invokers can do more to harm you. They have insects and beasts. But even so, that once again means they need to resort to skills outside the class, and that means that balance is off. As for improved invis, since it works only on people MORE than five levels below you, and I was a gnome with an exp penalty, pretty much my entire range could see me even when using improved invis. *shrug* Not that this really has anything to do with it. And assassins and thieves and rangers can all hide from invokers. (Unless they allow duerg invokers soon, I guess. :P) > Cethern Diarmuid
> slips your mind.
> it and he blocked your path a few times.
> it very regularly, and it lags for two at best. I can't swear to it, but I'm pretty sure if you coned and I pincered at the
> exact same time, the two round lag from pincer does not add on top of your cone lag.
> lately and had them commune/cast between each one. From looking at logs of master fights, the number of rounds they last is
> far longer than any fight I ever had as a dwarf that doesn't dodge much. With all those rounds of combat, there is no way I
> could get you lagged out enough that you wouldn't have time to word.
> open dies is when you're both ALMOST dead, so you both stick around hoping you pull it out. Sometimes then a well-timed
> pincer will do the trick, but otherwise no. I can't tell you how often someone flees between the first and second hit a pincer
> does, leaving me lagged forever while the three rounds go by. Three rounds while fighting is much shorter than three rounds
> when you're not.
> in the master's home without too many risks, but it's not good for town, and stopping to beat down every guard/dog/person I
> walk by makes it real hard to chase you down.
> kill you. You lasted 18 rounds. There were two assassins throwing and a thief viscious attacking. That's not that common
> to run into that bad of a setup against you. And you were insect swarmed. Don't you think you should die at odds like that?
> They all fled/worded. The logs of him taking on Quinthen and someone else.
> where he could thirst, but who died at the end of it all? He did.
> spec. Any one of them. For one thing, some can hit everything in a room.
> >Sure, it's not gonna happen every time, but it can and does happen. It happened to me. Of course, I didn't often spam spells, once I knew who was
> >a berserker, since not one spell ever, in the 100+ hours of being a hero, went through area spellbane. But that's a product of the very change I'm
> >talking about.
> It can and does happen? It happened to me? Are you not supposed to EVER die alone?
> >spells, if they ever went through, did EVISCERATE and sometimes lower case dam, even on foes that were vuln to the spell.)
> >Diarmuid was a gnome, not an arial. I didn't have fly. And I was cheap-shotted to death more than once. And twice it was when fighting a thief all by
> >herself, no help from anyone. The thief just tripped and cheap shot kicked in and I went from 1100 hp to 0 in a few rounds, no commands going
> >through. It's not easy keeping fly up 24/7. Everyone knows that. It's fine, it's a good thing that you have to be conscious of it, but I was not an arial.
> >And of course, no shield removed my vuln to crushing items. And I didn't have the five color mail for most of my life.
> >What's more, you say that your lagging attacks couldn't keep me. Well, perhaps (I discussed pincer above), and perhaps a lone assassin throwing
> >wouldn't keep me from wording out, but then again, just one thief and almost any laging skill is improved beyond measure. Throw? Cheap shot kicks
> >in. Trip? Cheap shot kicks in. One thief and assassin together killed me when I had all six shields/barrier/aura/stone/shield. I didn't get a single
> >command in for about 12 round. And that's fine, that's complimentary skills working as a combo. Sucks for the victim, but that's how thieves work
> >with others.
> You're the one who said you wanted to talk about one on one things. Everything I talked about really referred to battle hero warriors,
> because I find complaints about them to be particularly unfair, considering the wide array of vulnerabilities they have.
> heard of the two villagers you played, I must not have been playing. If a lone warrior has a better chance at killing a long mage than
> vice versa, then why are all of the hero warriors con-dead? Is it because we're always getting ganged? Or because that's not true?
> or at the village. If it's at masters, you've got time to prepare before you come, or time while we kill the golem. If you're raiding
> us, then in theory you've checked out your odds and decided to come. When we had the orb you didn't come if odds were terrible. Nothing
> wrong with that. But please don't say a rager warrior without powers has a better chance of living through a retrieval attempt than you.
> humans a vulnerability just makes even more the case. Do you think a healer should be able to fight one on one and have a good chance of defeating a
> prepared invoker? I don't. Invokers and healers both have the ability to dramatically aide others when it comes to fighting. If on top of this, they
> could also stand up to any race/class combo, then where is the drawback? Shouldn't we all just play healers then? Why is it you don't think being able
> to shield people isn't worth anything? If you don't like this type of play, don't be an invoker again. Would you agree that an invoker would be
> the best class to fight a conjurer with?
> of yours:
> Hiroj is seared by the blistering heat of your spell.
> Your nova *** DEVASTATES *** Hiroj!
> Reuschlein is seared by the blistering heat of your spell.
> Your nova does UNSPEAKABLE things to Reuschlein!
> Reuschlein is DEAD!!
> Reuschlein's hand is sliced from his dead body.
> which is great on raids.
> than any fighter class does count for alot.
> and how many hours did you play?
> Look what you did to Gees:
> Your cone of cold *** DEMOLISHES *** Gees!
> wield his spear. Can you name a warrior class/spec that could have defeated Diarmuid without area spellbane?
> everything better than thirsting ragers, and could kick ass against many of them.
> is baned with the same consistancy.
> lag, meaning if you hit with that first you've got at least one big spell through before thirsting, and perhaps a second one.
And as for my spells that lag, we're talking buffet and pebble. Both are spellbaned by *regular* spellbane. And pebble misses more than it hits. It's a spell that misses the target. And buffet, if it lags you, generally sends you out of the room, affording you time to either escape, or re-spellbane.
> rager not thirsting is no worse than the chance of finding you not flying.
> shot at surprising someone who's not quite a hero yet.