Posted by Cethern on January 12, 2000 at 04:39:43:
In Reply to: Re: What ragers did you play? text posted by Graatch on January 11, 2000 at 19:40:25:
It's not easy for a warrior to find a hero invoker unprepared. It's not like you've got to be out ranking and something This statement alone is so rediculous I won't even comment on it. 100 hours of area spells, not one got through. >Oh, and god forbid you were dualing two mondurian axes, so you were hitting me on my vuln, those deathblows would *really* hurt. (Whereas my Few people can wield two mondurains. They weigh 35 pounds I believe. I don't know why I thought you were an arial. It's been a while. That's simply not how CF is set up right now. Every class can not fight every other race/class/cabal and succeed. Giving every single race except maybe Hiroj is seared by the blistering heat of your spell. Reuschlein yells 'Die, Diarmuid, you sorcerous dog!' Not bad for things that could hit a whole groupful. Yes, I saw lots of mangles and lower in your logs, but they always did phenominal things to mobs, Should a defender rager complain that a whole class can nullify them? (Invokers) Your cone of cold === OBLITERATES === Gees! That was three or four rounds. What if you'd used avalanche? He's a svirf. Plus your scourage right before that weakened him so much he couldn't You can't have a group of such widely varried race/class/cabal choices and not have everyone be vulnerable to certain things. I would bet you fought Cethern
>That's simply untrue for a whole host of reasons, but let me give you just two situations/examples. One: You attack me when I haven't seen you
>coming, or I am simply unprepared, or I had been prepared but my spells are falling, or any of that. Upshot, I'm not prepared with all that dam
>reduction. You come up and attack. You pincer, get a couple deathblows (you're hasted, remember? You are going to hit me, alot. I can't parry
>axes for shit). I die. It happened. Two: I think I am prepared. You pincer. I toss in a couple spells thinking I'm gonna take you. My first spell goes off.
>(Baned or not, whatever) Now I have three-five rounds before I can do anything. That's one or two rounds based on what spell I cast (I have two round
>lag on cone, or pillar, for example). Then I have another two rounds being lagged from pincer. Then I can cast a spell in the fifth or so round. Lets
>say I am feeling cocky and put two spells in. I'm now forced to stay for what, 7-10 rounds? Yeah, I've got alot of hps and you are not hitting me for
>much on normal hits. But toss in a few deathblows (hasted again, remember?) and just one extra spell instead of fleeing/recalling, and bam, I'm
>dead.
slips your mind. I honestly don't believe I ever killed you on my own. Possibly I did at the giant, while you were fighting
it and he blocked your path a few times. But the fact is, Pincer takes three rounds, by the time I was middle-aged I missed
it very regularly, and it lags for two at best. I can't swear to it, but I'm pretty sure if you coned and I pincered at the
exact same time, the two round lag from pincer does not add on top of your cone lag. I say that because I've lashed people
lately and had them commune/cast between each one. From looking at logs of master fights, the number of rounds they last is
far longer than any fight I ever had as a dwarf that doesn't dodge much. With all those rounds of combat, there is no way I
could get you lagged out enough that you wouldn't have time to word. I would say half or more of the times a mage out in the
open dies is when you're both ALMOST dead, so you both stick around hoping you pull it out. Sometimes then a well-timed
pincer will do the trick, but otherwise no. I can't tell you how often someone flees between the first and second hit a pincer
does, leaving me lagged forever while the three rounds go by. Three rounds while fighting is much shorter than three rounds
when you're not. You seem to think a warrior can bloodthirst anywhere without risk. It's pretty easy to do in the village or
in the master's home without too many risks, but it's not good for town, and stopping to beat down every guard/dog/person I
walk by makes it real hard to chase you down. I just looked at a log you posted where you complain it took six people to
kill you. You lasted 18 rounds. There were two assassins throwing and a thief viscious attacking. That's not that common
to run into that bad of a setup against you. And you were insect swarmed. Don't you think you should die at odds like that?
You brought up Takashimi taking on five hero pets or something, but if you look at those longs, he didn't manage to kill anyone.
They all fled/worded. The logs of him taking on Quinthen and someone else. Yeah, he beat them up a few times when he found them
where he could thirst, but who died at the end of it all? He did. And his kicks are better at lagging someone than any warrior
spec. Any one of them. For one thing, some can hit everything in a room.
>Sure, it's not gonna happen every time, but it can and does happen. It happened to me. Of course, I didn't often spam spells, once I knew who was
>a berserker, since not one spell ever, in the 100+ hours of being a hero, went through area spellbane. But that's a product of the very change I'm
>talking about.
It can and does happen? It happened to me? Are you not supposed to EVER die alone?
>spells, if they ever went through, did EVISCERATE and sometimes lower case dam, even on foes that were vuln to the spell.)
>Diarmuid was a gnome, not an arial. I didn't have fly. And I was cheap-shotted to death more than once. And twice it was when fighting a thief all by
>herself, no help from anyone. The thief just tripped and cheap shot kicked in and I went from 1100 hp to 0 in a few rounds, no commands going
>through. It's not easy keeping fly up 24/7. Everyone knows that. It's fine, it's a good thing that you have to be conscious of it, but I was not an arial.
>And of course, no shield removed my vuln to crushing items. And I didn't have the five color mail for most of my life.
>What's more, you say that your lagging attacks couldn't keep me. Well, perhaps (I discussed pincer above), and perhaps a lone assassin throwing
>wouldn't keep me from wording out, but then again, just one thief and almost any laging skill is improved beyond measure. Throw? Cheap shot kicks
>in. Trip? Cheap shot kicks in. One thief and assassin together killed me when I had all six shields/barrier/aura/stone/shield. I didn't get a single
>command in for about 12 round. And that's fine, that's complimentary skills working as a combo. Sucks for the victim, but that's how thieves work
>with others.
You're the one who said you wanted to talk about one on one things. Everything I talked about really referred to battle hero warriors,
because I find complaints about them to be particularly unfair, considering the wide array of vulnerabilities they have. I've never
heard of the two villagers you played, I must not have been playing. If a lone warrior has a better chance at killing a long mage than
vice versa, then why are all of the hero warriors con-dead? Is it because we're always getting ganged? Or because that's not true?
I mentioned rager honor beacause there are two places say, three of us could attack you at once and not have it frowned on. At masters
or at the village. If it's at masters, you've got time to prepare before you come, or time while we kill the golem. If you're raiding
us, then in theory you've checked out your odds and decided to come. When we had the orb you didn't come if odds were terrible. Nothing
wrong with that. But please don't say a rager warrior without powers has a better chance of living through a retrieval attempt than you.
>You're absolutely right, some classes/races are harder to fight than others. It's not equally easy/difficult for everyone to fight everyone else. My
>point, however, is that no one set of cabal powers should in essence negate an entire other class, and that's what berserker powers do vis-a-vis
>invokers. Invokers cast spells. That's what they do. Don't talk about joining with others, getting others to fight, getting charmies, etc. That's all
>outside the makeup of the class. Each class should be able to fight every other class, even if not terribly well, to some extent, using it's own set of
>skills/spells. Invokers can pretty much only harm the berserker thirsting rager if they catch him in a quicksand, and have a snowstorm there, and
>that ain't gonna kill anyone. I did it. And don't tell me to wield a weapon and fight it out, making my weapon do my damag for me. I'm fighting a
>hasted warrior-class. He's gonna parry/dodge/shieldblock/spin/distance/evade/ my attacks. And dont tell me to summon some big mobs to get in
>the thirsting rager's way. I'm an invoker, I can't summon.
humans a vulnerability just makes even more the case. Do you think a healer should be able to fight one on one and have a good chance of defeating a
prepared invoker? I don't. Invokers and healers both have the ability to dramatically aide others when it comes to fighting. If on top of this, they
could also stand up to any race/class combo, then where is the drawback? Shouldn't we all just play healers then? Why is it you don't think being able
to shield people isn't worth anything? If you don't like this type of play, don't be an invoker again. Would you agree that an invoker would be
the best class to fight a conjurer with? How many ragers died because you made quicksand outside the village? Here are a few of your spells from a log
of yours:
Your nova *** DEVASTATES *** Hiroj!
Reuschlein is seared by the blistering heat of your spell.
Your nova does UNSPEAKABLE things to Reuschlein!
Reuschlein is DEAD!!
Reuschlein's hand is sliced from his dead body.
which is great on raids. Considering the group killing that takes place on CF, the fact that your chances of surviving a group attack is far higher
than any fighter class does count for alot. Honestly, how many times do you think you died in a one on one fight? How many times did you die period
and how many hours did you play?
Look what you did to Gees:
Your cone of cold *** DEMOLISHES *** Gees!
wield his spear. Can you name a warrior class/spec that could have defeated Diarmuid without area spellbane?
everything better than thirsting ragers, and could kick ass against many of them. I still say you can defeat a berserker villager. Not every spell
is baned with the same consistancy. You cannot bloodthirst everywhere at any time. Quicksand is huge. Ice storm makes it worse. Some of your spells
lag, meaning if you hit with that first you've got at least one big spell through before thirsting, and perhaps a second one. The chance of finding a
rager not thirsting is no worse than the chance of finding you not flying. Sylvan invokers are particularly nasty. Improved invis can give you a good
shot at surprising someone who's not quite a hero yet.