Posted by Graatch on January 11, 2000 at 19:40:25:
In Reply to: What ragers did you play? text posted by Cethern on January 11, 2000 at 17:59:22:
I'll reply to each section as they come. But first, generally, I had alot more respect for you before reading this, Cethern. You just make stuff up here, and pretend I said things I never said, and assume things that are completely false. Next time, dont. (I'll refer to some of them in the body of the post) > What heros did you play at least? That's the only Both heros were post-purge. One was Bannor and the other was Avshar. Not great ragers, never said they were. Just saying I have seen the other side. (Before the most recent changes, of course.) > I didn't know you were Diarmuid. It makes sense considering I'm not anti-rager. I am anti-imbalancing implementations, or unecessary and overdone extras (like sectleader powers/emperor getting all four, as an example). It just so happens that recently the rager changes (some) are too much, and so I spoke about them. You can only really speak about what you experience. I experienced them as an invoker, so I spoke about them as how they affect invokers -- and then I also said mages generally, but always with that caveat. As someone who fought That's simply untrue for a whole host of reasons, but let me give you just two situations/examples. One: You attack me when I haven't seen you coming, or I am simply unprepared, or I had been prepared but my spells are falling, or any of that. Upshot, I'm not prepared with all that dam reduction. You come up and attack. You pincer, get a couple deathblows (you're hasted, remember? You are going to hit me, alot. I can't parry axes for shit). I die. It happened. Two: I think I am prepared. You pincer. I toss in a couple spells thinking I'm gonna take you. My first spell goes off. (Baned or not, whatever) Now I have three-five rounds before I can do anything. That's one or two rounds based on what spell I cast (I have two round lag on cone, or pillar, for example). Then I have another two rounds being lagged from pincer. Then I can cast a spell in the fifth or so round. Lets say I am feeling cocky and put two spells in. I'm now forced to stay for what, 7-10 rounds? Yeah, I've got alot of hps and you are not hitting me for much on normal hits. But toss in a few deathblows (hasted again, remember?) and just one extra spell instead of fleeing/recalling, and bam, I'm dead. Sure, it's not gonna happen every time, but it can and does happen. It happened to me. Of course, I didn't often spam spells, once I knew who was a berserker, since not one spell ever, in the 100+ hours of being a hero, went through area spellbane. But that's a product of the very change I'm talking about. Oh, and god forbid you were dualing two mondurian axes, so you were hitting me on my vuln, those deathblows would *really* hurt. (Whereas my spells, if they ever went through, did EVISCERATE and sometimes lower case dam, even on foes that were vuln to the spell.) The times Diarmuid was a gnome, not an arial. I didn't have fly. And I was cheap-shotted to death more than once. And twice it was when fighting a thief all by herself, no help from anyone. The thief just tripped and cheap shot kicked in and I went from 1100 hp to 0 in a few rounds, no commands going through. It's not easy keeping fly up 24/7. Everyone knows that. It's fine, it's a good thing that you have to be conscious of it, but I was not an arial. And of course, no shield removed my vuln to crushing items. And I didn't have the five color mail for most of my life. > Basically, Diarmuid went from being able to take on a pack of You mean like one berserker rager does now? Like in Takashimi's most recent post where he singlehandedly killed like five hero level called beasts, made two or three other heros flee and die? Why is it ok for you, then, and not for other classes? And instead, you pissed I'm interested in hearing about this hoarde of invokers, the scores of them running around kicking ass and taking names, fighting berserker ragers ONE ON ONE and winning, doing well, etc. You let me know when you collate all of that data and send it to me, I'm breathless with anticipation. > Maybe you think ranking a mage to hero means you deserve that right, No, I don't think that. But nor do I think anyone can hero an invoker and put in the time and effort to get everything perfected. Some people just don't like/want/can do that. It doesn't make you better or worse, just different. Just because Your personal ranking habits, while interesting, aren't really relevant. But thank you for sharing. > Complain all you want about Rager honor. Where, in any post in any of this thread, or any thread of recent history, did I mention "Rager honor"? Why are you bringing this up at all? We are the only cabal with I think you are simply wrong in this. The chances of a lone rager killing a lone mage is much higher than a lone mage killing a lone rager. Especially given things like assassination, blackjack/backstab, all the various warrior specs, tigerclaw, etc, in conjunction with haste, or discern, or area spellbane, and so forth. In a Actually, Diarmuid was known for fighting more by himself, for going off and just doing it (trying to retrieve the orb, trying to raid) before the others got ready to join him. Yeah, I was in pk groups, especially during the empire war when we used nightgaunt alot. But I was more often than not doing it by myself, on my own schedule. Them's the facts. > Every single class/race/cabal choice has something that they're not very You're absolutely right, some classes/races are harder to fight than others. It's not equally easy/difficult for everyone to fight everyone else. My point, however, is that no one set of cabal powers should in essence negate an entire other class, and that's what berserker powers do vis-a-vis invokers. Invokers cast spells. That's what they do. Don't talk about joining with others, getting others to fight, getting charmies, etc. That's all outside the makeup of the class. Each class should be able to fight every other class, even if not terribly well, to some extent, using it's own set of skills/spells. Invokers can pretty much only harm the berserker thirsting rager if they catch him in a quicksand, and have a snowstorm there, and that ain't gonna kill anyone. I did it. And don't tell me to wield a weapon and fight it out, making my weapon do my damag for me. I'm fighting a hasted warrior-class. He's gonna parry/dodge/shieldblock/spin/distance/evade/ my attacks. And dont tell me to summon some big mobs to get in the thirsting rager's way. I'm an invoker, I can't summon. > I don't know if there would be anything I could do to make Cethern good against I've said it before and I'll say it again: You tell me (in private if you want, I'll keep it to myself if you wish) what an invoker can do to effectively pk a thirsting berserker rager and I'll publicly say you were right, I was wrong, and eat as much crow as you can feed me. And I can eat alot. Diarmuid > Cethern
> thing that matters for the discussions you've brought
> up. I would guess I was around for at least one of
> them, and I'm curious. And how long ago did you play
> them? (When was the purge? Only landmark in my memory)
> all the anti-rager things I see from you.
> Diarmuid, I have no sympathy for you. There was no way I could
> kill you on my own. Not because I didn't sometimes hit hard
> enough to do it, but because pincer is not an effective way to
> keep someone around long enough to finish them off.
> I remember you dying are getting assassinated by Takashimi or
> Taishanrawr, once when I pincered, an assassin threw and one
> other person was there doing some similar lagging thing. With
> all your health and shields, there is no way just one of those
> lagging attacks would have kept you in a fight until the end.
> As an arial, you didn't even have to worry about flying, and your
> shields nullify any vulnerabilities the race has. Just being able
> to fly means if it's just you and me, there are several places you
> can go to that I can't even get to. And if you're a race that can
> swim, a whole lot more.
What's more, you say that your lagging attacks couldn't keep me. Well, perhaps (I discussed pincer above), and perhaps a lone assassin throwing wouldn't keep me from wording out, but then again, just one thief and almost any laging skill is improved beyond measure. Throw? Cheap shot kicks in. Trip? Cheap shot kicks in. One thief and assassin together killed me when I had all six shields/barrier/aura/stone/shield. I didn't get a single command in for about 12 round. And that's fine, that's complimentary skills working as a combo. Sucks for the victim, but that's how thieves work with others.
As for going underwater, ragers can go underwater too. Seaweed is acceptable, so dont bring that up. If you personally couldn't go because you chose a race that can't go underwater, that's not a cabal-specific issue.
> ragers and send us all running to actually having to learn something
> new before he could be effective again.
I don't think it's right for *any* class, pretty much, to be able to go up against a pack of any others, at any time, and make them all flee. And I didn't do that as Diarmuid. Especially since geyser and pillar were toned down a few months back.
Additionally, there _is_ something different to invokers in particular, and assassins to a lesser extent. They are *required* to master their things to progress, to spend hundreds of real hours just to get the things they use. That's ooc. In an ic framework, think about it this way: you spend years and years mastering the intricacies of an element. YOu master the first, basic spell. Then the second, then the third, then the fourth, then the fifth and now you have the sixth. You have mastered an element. Now, you want to use it, and you get "decimates" on someone who is vulnerable to that element. Does that sound reasonable to you? Don't come back and misquote me here, I'm not saying that invokers should therefore be mini-gods and able to walk in with a spell that does <<<>>> every round with no lag and be invulnerable. That's just one extreme. The other extreme though is just as bad though, and too *little* damage for some of these spells makes just as little sense as too much.
> and moaned, died a couple of times and deleted. I'm not very
> impressed at all. There are so many invokers out there now that
> do just fine, it would suggest that the changes made it so that a
> badly played invoker (you) can no longer just kick ass left and right.
> but you don't. Anyone who has played a while can do that.
> warriors are very good at low levels doesn't mean we should suck at high
> levels. I don't play warriors to be that level 25 ass who runs around
> town bashing everything. I spend as little time as possible at low ranks,
> because I like the challenge of being a hero.
> even a hint of such a policy. I won't argue low levels, but at hero
> right now, you're not going to run into groups of us killing a lone
> mage, save in raids. Short of inside the village, the chance of a
> warrior killing you on his own is very low. The chance of a lone mage
> killing a rager on his own outside the village is much higher.
> group, very high, and you had no problems fighting in groups.
> good at fighting. As Cethern I fought a mongoose for 21 rounds and didn't
> hit him once. I never did well against a mongoose. A mongoose can raid
> the village and tank two warriors and the destructor while whoever else came
> with him does the damage. But I've seen what area songs and spells do to them,
> and you realize that they're virtually useless if we had a village bard there.
> I couldn't beat assassins even as a hand to hand spec, because my dex would be
> so low by the end they just tore me apart.
> a mongoose. Annoying? Yes. But as far as the assassin goes, I could get armor
> so I'd at least have some strength and dex left. And frankly, there are things
> you could have done as Diarmuid to be more effective. But you couldn't handle
> dying and gave up.