Posted by One who has been there since the beginning and knows. on March 11, 2000 at 04:26:23:
In Reply to: You obviously either didn't read the post right before yours, or you didn't manage to grasp it's meaning. (text) posted by Klaak on March 11, 2000 at 01:53:22:
> Ok, the fact that bloodthirst stays up when the berserker flees is an incredible DISadvantange. If all you had to do to get rid of bloodthirst in a situation where perhaps you should not of called it or where someone changed tactics because of it, is flee, berserkers would be able to kill much better. Hell, they would stay thirsted almost all the time then, cause they wouldn't have to worry about fleeing into something like an elite storm and attacking it, or fleeing into anything else you don't want to attack.
All right, you saying +15/+15 and -30 ac isn't a huge fucking advantage!? Gimme a break!! as well as area spellbane!?
It used to be that you couldn't flee for a reason because of the huge advantage and you would also attack other ragers. It's a very potent skill coupled up with deathblow (which is a crock but that is another message) and that's why you had these drawbacks. Old ragers used it effectively like this in the first and second age, why now did it change?
Secondly, you pretty well are immune to all first attacks using bloodthirst, that's another huge advantage. This is a grossly overpowered skill, that has no disadvantage any longer.
The main thing that pisses me off with this is that ragers can flee while thirsted, why the hell can't shaman flee and recall while under the affects of Aristeia!? Come on Mr. rager, quick, tell me. Going by your logic, NO answer right?
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> The reason that you can flee at all while thirsted, is that even though you are bloodthirsty, that doesn't mean that you can no longer think and employ strategy. It also doesn't mean that the victim of the berserker can't think and employ strategy as well. Since so many people have difficulty figuring these things out, I'll give a little and point a few out (not going to point them all out as there's nothing I hate more than spoon feeding people)
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> The balancing factor of bloodthirst is the aggro to all except ragers. Use that to your advantage. Any summoner worth half his wit knows to summon up something difficult for the rager to kill, so that when he thirsts, he has that to deal with as well (ie. elite storm giants). A warrior can drive/pull the rager into another mob, or in some cases, into one mob, then past him into a second mob so that the ragers has to flee many times to get back to his intended victim. Those are just two of the blatantly obvious ones. There are other options for other classes, but like I said, I'm not going to spoon feed people if they can't think for themselves. Ragers are not overpowered, Masters are not over powered, they are balanced against each other and not against the uncabaled population, or against the rest of Thera. Throw a thinking rager or a thinking master against the majority of uncabaled players and it's a good bet the master or rager is going to be dealing out a serious beating.
NO SHIT!!! and it would be fine if ragers and masters fought each other exclusively but this is by far the case. You almost avoid each other on purpose and take take your aggressions out on all the independents out there. What the chance do they have!?
That independent mage out there dealing with all the rager crap, can he honestly win? can 3 of them honestly win against a thirsting rager? We all know the answer is no.
"OOOOhh, OOOOhhh, but a prepped mage can whoop ass on an equal level rager." Not if he isn't in masters with transform, scourge and all his little buddies to back him up.
An independent character has little chance of taking out a rager solo, and then when he gangbangs, he is flamed and criticized on the forum and his character is assassinated.
Put them against each other (at about the same rank) and it's going to come down to who can employ the best strategy. Both of my ragers have delt serious beatings to every class of mage, and been seriously whipped by every class of mage. The smarter player generally wins, though just as we all know, once in a while you get a lucky break and the impossible happens, whichever way it may go. Ever since the new powers for both cabals when in, all I've heard is bitching from both sides about how overpowered the other cabal is. That in itself should be evidence that they are balanced, since obviously they can't both be overpowered against each other. Enough bitching and whining from both sides.
O.K. Mr. rager, here's a run down on the evolution of the master's and ragers cabal from the beginning. (I know you are biased towards ragers because they involve the least skill of all the cabals to level and pk with and you make predominantly ragers because you lack the skill to make an independent char, but don't worry, the skill level of caballed chars is generally lower than that of the independents out there so you are not alone.)
In the beginning...
Dwarven Clerics (omni class by today's standards)dominate masters. I had 2400 hp tranformed, coupled with haste, frenzy, sanc protection, as well as a giant and demon with the same. Basically I was indestructable along with Narsche, Ravenlok, Nepenthe and others. Yeah me and Nepenthe would tess in and wreak havok on the likes of CuChulain, Trilvain, Arborious, Einior and others. Now to specifics.
Masters able to dispel rager skills (this was funny but retarded).
Masters have tesseract
Masters transform doubles current hp (even that with eq)
Rager spellbane demolished and was 100%.
Did not reflect area spells.
Ragers bloodthirst prevents fleeing and they will attack anything in room, even destructor I believe.
Ragers still had deathblow when item lost but no true sight.
All in all, masters dominated slightly but not by much. Woe be to any other cabal though.
Now comes the descent of masters and ascent of ragers:
transform changed to 75% of natural mana(good change, made sense, hurt the dwarves big time though)
Ragers spellbane no longer 100% (about 85% I believe)and same damage as today (good change as well).
Masters skills gradually deteriorate to the shit they are at today. Loss of tesseract, mental knife, brew and demon was a brutal loss same with loss of ap's and paladins and clerics but oh well.
What do ragers lose? Let's see:
rager cabal moved in closs proximity to new thalos and gal so ragers can run there quickly when plagued, poisoned, blinded(cool, no problem with this since this is the ONLY way a rager can lose the maledictions i.e. at their own healer)
True sight only sees magic and invis now, no more hidden (whoop de doo)
Phylacteries come into the game to cure plague and poison, I wonder why? Guess running back to healer was too much of a problem.
When item lost, no more deathblow, but can still truesight (what the hell is this? ALL skills should be lost like other cabals).
Bloodthirst no longer prevents fleeing, read my rant above (this is a crock).
Three divisions in ragers now (great idea except should limit the no. of berzerkers to balance the divisons.)
Berzerkers can now spellbane area affects at about 85%!? (bullshit)
And this one I am not sure of, true sight cures blidness!? I have blinded a rager before and he came back immediately unblinded to attack me. My jaw dropped, I thought what the hell is this!? Luckily I got away. Can someone enlighten me on this?
Cause this is the straw that broke the camels back. Now I simply avoid ragers because I'm not into gangbanging if I can help it.
Since I feel pking with cabal skills is cheap when someone doesn't have any, I have stayed out of cabals completely for several years (so I am sure I have missed some smaller changes in the cabals which people can point out) Hell, if an invalid like Trell can make #2 on the pk list with his cheap rager crap, you know there is a problem with the cabal situation, even he said so himself.
Anyway, I digress. The point I'm making Mr. Rager, is that caballed characters have a tremendous advantage over the independent and always will however I do realize that they do have to put up with a lot of cabal politics but thier extra abilities more than compensate for this.
To balance things I heard a great idea somewhere in the forum a while ago. Introduce an xp penalty to cabal members (say 400-500). This would insure a 3-4 level advantage to independents and would keep all the cabals as they are now. I think is is very fair and actually may start making more independents out there which hopefully eliminates the cookie cutter syndrome I am seeing out there now. What do you all think?
My several cents, Old Timer.