I like this thread, I like when they deal with fundementals. (longish)

I like this thread, I like when they deal with fundementals. (longish):
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Posted by The First Citizen(IMM) on March 22, 2000 at 13:12:58:

In Reply to: That's fucked up. posted by Citizen Kane on March 22, 2000 at 10:57:31:

Let me say as always, this is my view not the view of the IMMS in general. But since I was a large part of the foundation and definition of the Empire my opinion is quite relevant.

> First: if an imperial got a rank and some magic boots for it, letting the virgin healer of Selric live would be well within evil roleplay. Being evil is about being selfish, it is not about being anti-good.

I will allude to Nepenthe's post, which I thought was inferred in my own but upon re-reading it I didn't make the point. My bad. If you are doing the quest to get the reward, you have no IC way of knowing there is a reward. Even after you get the reward you have helped another a great deal more than you have been helped so it is still a selfless, not a selfish act.

> I can't believe I'm explaining this to an immortal. Here's the CF rundown, you imms made it up, not us: Good is Empathy, Neutral is either conscious balance or an unconscious lack of light/dark, Evil is Selfishness.

This is not entirely true. Selfishness is a part of evil, there is no doubt about it, but it is far from the total. You could play a good sphere greed, it would be hard, but it could be done. Just like you can play a good sphere Destruction, Envy, etc. Good/neutral/evil are quantitive values in the world of CF as well as guidelines for behavior. With good roleplay the two can merge but Evil CAN be about killing good just as Good CAN be about killing evil. This is because Evil is a part of a character's soul as well as being a defintion of action. That's why when you change aligns you lose your direction and skills/spells/others.

I will use the Maran as example. These people destroy evil as a religion because evil can be seen as a quantitative value. (Red Aura) is that quantitative value and should be destroyed because of it.

Empire has related philosophies if not as clearly. One such philosopy is the fact that you can USE good to benifit the Empire so long as YOU have the advantage of the exchange. That is one of the key issues involved in this from an RP standpoint. That specific quest results in Good getting the better end of the deal. Therefore it is the Imperial (or wannabe) who is used by Good which is unacceptable. Now this is a part of being Imperial, you can disagree with the fact but its still a fact. Its built into the Cabal.

Now your point about Legion of Old is an interesting one. Its related to the reason sects aren't supposed to help each other. Evil should prey upon the weak amongst themselves as well as prey upon good. There should't be buddy-buddy evil all happily helping one another for the greater destruction of good. You should be worried that your groupmate should kill you when you are weak from combat. THAT was the problem with Legion, not the fact that they wanted to destroy good.

>
Killing goodies is NOT the primary purpose of evil, instead, it is helping yourself.

Good point. Primary being the key word in that sentance, not NOT. We don't want Thera to be a giant (AURA) war and we do want variations of evil, good, neutrality to be roleplayed thouroughly and well. There is a reason Evils get more xp's for killing good mobs than neutral or evil. Its not as direct and defined as Goods (Evils get xp's for killing evils') but there is still a methodology there.

>
> Now, aside from these obvious things... this is how you choose to roleplay your archevil imperial God of sword of stone? By picking on citizens for long-forgotten long-moot newbie quests that involved their own profit?

First off, I didn't pick on anyone, I'm just enjoying the debate. Second there is no sword of stone that I know of associated with any Imperial God or the Empire. Third the quest in question is neither long-forgotten or moot which is the real point. It is bad RP (See Nep's unNepenthely clear point) for evil to do the quest, especially bad for an Imperial. 99% of the evils who do the quest do so because its statistically benificial for their character to do so, that is shitty roleplay and so is now apparently being retro-actively punished.

>Why don't you go write a quest or something?

I have before and maybe will again soon.

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Re: I like this thread, I like when they deal with fundementals. (longish) Saerin 14:11:53 3/22/2000 (1)
- Re: I like this thread, I like when they deal with fundementals. (longish) The First Citizen(IMM) 14:27:32 3/22/2000 (0)

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Comments:	> Let me say as always, this is my view not the view of the IMMS in general. But since I was a large part of the foundation and definition of the Empire my opinion is quite relevant. > > > First: if an imperial got a rank and some magic boots for it, letting the virgin healer of Selric live would be well within evil roleplay. Being evil is about being <b>selfish</b>, it is not about being <b>anti-good</b>. > > I will allude to Nepenthe's post, which I thought was inferred in my own but upon re-reading it I didn't make the point. My bad. If you are doing the quest to get the reward, you have no IC way of knowing there is a reward. Even after you get the reward you have helped another a great deal more than you have been helped so it is still a selfless, not a selfish act. > > > I can't believe I'm explaining this to an immortal. Here's the CF rundown, you imms made it up, not us: Good is Empathy, Neutral is either conscious balance or an unconscious lack of light/dark, Evil is Selfishness. > > This is not entirely true. Selfishness is a part of evil, there is no doubt about it, but it is far from the total. You could play a good sphere greed, it would be hard, but it could be done. Just like you can play a good sphere Destruction, Envy, etc. Good/neutral/evil are quantitive values in the world of CF as well as guidelines for behavior. With good roleplay the two can merge but Evil CAN be about killing good just as Good CAN be about killing evil. This is because Evil is a part of a character's soul as well as being a defintion of action. That's why when you change aligns you lose your direction and skills/spells/others. > > I will use the Maran as example. These people destroy evil as a religion because evil can be seen as a quantitative value. (Red Aura) is that quantitative value and should be destroyed because of it. > > Empire has related philosophies if not as clearly. One such philosopy is the fact that you can USE good to benifit the Empire so long as YOU have the advantage of the exchange. That is one of the key issues involved in this from an RP standpoint. That specific quest results in Good getting the better end of the deal. Therefore it is the Imperial (or wannabe) who is used by Good which is unacceptable. Now this is a part of being Imperial, you can disagree with the fact but its still a fact. Its built into the Cabal. > > Now your point about Legion of Old is an interesting one. Its related to the reason sects aren't supposed to help each other. Evil should prey upon the weak amongst themselves as well as prey upon good. There should't be buddy-buddy evil all happily helping one another for the greater destruction of good. You should be worried that your groupmate should kill you when you are weak from combat. THAT was the problem with Legion, not the fact that they wanted to destroy good. > > > > Killing goodies is NOT the primary purpose of evil, instead, it is helping yourself. > > Good point. Primary being the key word in that sentance, not NOT. We don't want Thera to be a giant (AURA) war and we do want variations of evil, good, neutrality to be roleplayed thouroughly and well. There is a reason Evils get more xp's for killing good mobs than neutral or evil. Its not as direct and defined as Goods (Evils get xp's for killing evils') but there is still a methodology there. > > > > > Now, aside from these obvious things... this is how you choose to roleplay your archevil imperial God of sword of stone? By picking on citizens for long-forgotten long-moot newbie quests that involved their own profit? > > First off, I didn't pick on anyone, I'm just enjoying the debate. Second there is no sword of stone that I know of associated with any Imperial God or the Empire. Third the quest in question is neither long-forgotten or moot which is the real point. It is bad RP (See Nep's unNepenthely clear point) for evil to do the quest, especially bad for an Imperial. 99% of the evils who do the quest do so because its statistically benificial for their character to do so, that is shitty roleplay and so is now apparently being retro-actively punished. > > >Why don't you go write a quest or something? > > I have before and maybe will again soon.

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