Posted by A coder on July 8, 2000 at 13:45:12:
In Reply to: My $50 worth (LONG!) posted by Klaak on July 8, 2000 at 12:34:57:
> The problem with arbs in this respect, is that it's not just the evil arbs. I would expect such from evil arbs, as that's what lawful evil is, but when Lawful good arbs start doing it, THAT'S when it becomes bullshit. I direct you to the other descriptions of lawful in the help alignment: > Lawful Good: An orderly, strong society with a well-organized government > Lawful Neutral: Also believes in a strong, well-organized government, whether > But this does not seem to be the generally accepted view of the arbiters. The generally accpeted view of the arbs is that the laws are to be obeyed strictly to the letter, and intent does not make bit of difference, even if that tranny slowed his untrusting groupmate so that he would heal before the criminal attacking him managed to kill him. An evil arbiter would see that as a chance to kill someone and nab their gear. A good arb should see that as a tranny trying to defend his friend who didn't have his head screwed on straight. A neutral could see it as either. I totally agree with you on these points. I think that Arbiters need to be better monitored and uninducted as easily as someone is anathema'd. However... It seems that there aren't many Arbiters around, so maybe those that ARE monitored are given a little more slack (albeit unjust) just because there isn't enough Quantity to be so strict about Quality. Totally agree. > Whether he is ticked off about getting caught doing a crime has nothing to do with the point he just stated. I'll restate his point since you seem to have entirely missed the whole concept: > The prime example is flagging anyone who attacks you whilst you have guards outside of town. If you're not fighting the wanted criminal with your guards, or at least right on his tail, you are fair game to be pked just like anyone else. It is far from fair because you have two buff as fuck guards with you. > Arbiter's guards do not exist for the arb to cower behind and to use as an excuse to flag someone should you get attacked. They are there to help deal justice to criminals. There have been many times where I was well justified in attacking an arb, not because they were an arb, or may or may not have been persuing a criminal, but for my own RP reasons, and I attacked them outside of town and was flagged for it. Again, if the arb was evil, this is something I might expect, as they are free to stretch and bend the laws to suit them. But when this is done by a paladin, or other good arb, it again falls into the demi-plane of bullshit. Again, I agree. I don't think that Arbiters should walk around with their guards unless they are within a reasonable amount of steps of a Criminal, or if they're going to engage and chase the criminal. Otherwise they are just being used as a bully tactic. I see Arbiters chillin' in Market Square with their guards. No criminals, no Barons causing Chaos or anything.. just standing there. The other day, in fact, I was there and there were three Arbiters.. 6 guards. I patted one of the guards on the head (something I like to do) and handed them a whole chicken each. One of them made a comment like 'Are you going to cause us any trouble?' which to me is just ridiculous. Some arbiters use their guards as Bodyguards, instead of as the freelance killers to be used on CRIMINALS. I got his point, and wasn't necessarily calling him a liar, but I am hesitant when someone says something along those lines. For example: Someone posted under the name 'Player' and saying in their post.. 'Oh, I've played every mage class up to Hero and xyz is the best for xyz reason.' Maybe they don't want to give out names, but shooting off your mouth like that about things is something too common on this Forum. People feel they must justify their comments. If he left out the 'Immortal' situation, his comments would have been just effective.. that's all. Tough break man. One time I was made Wanted, and I was in New Thalos... The Arm Biter told me, 'For attacking ***.' and I replied.. 'Where? When?' He said 'Galadon, just a few seconds ago. I heard him scream.' Apparently his vigilance was down, but took the guy's word for it anyway. Within the next twenty seconds I somehow 'convinced' him (or so I thought) to remove the flag. He said, come to Galadon for Trial in the Square and if less than two witnesses show up, I will not flag you. Well, I got to Galadon. I walked into Market Square, tipped my hat. You are now WANTED!! Not only that, but others in my Range where in MS and tripped/bashed me to keep me from running from the guards. Bullshit I say! But, oh well. > 1) A device for confining the hands, usually consisting of a set of two metal rings that are fastened about the wrists and joined by a metal chain. > The fact that they are joined by a chain, means that total wrist movement is not stopped. Last I checked, a chain was not a bar. Limited wrist movement should make it much harder to cast, but not impossible. I think it should prevent word of recall, and teleport, and reduce chance to cast offensive spells about about 35% (I think that was a reasonable reduction). This way manacles are not worthless against a mage, but at the same time, a manacled mage is not worthless. They still have somewhat of a chance to fight back, should they choose to, instead of thier only options being die, or carrying a potion of return/teleport, wand of return, or orb of travel. I definitely agree with you on those points and if you read the (reply within) post in this thread of mine, I mentioned what I thought about Manacles. My point exactly. Very true, but in all honesty.. Most Arbiters SUCK at chasing criminals. I dunno.. that's been my experience. > I wouldn't, but I still feel this is unrealistic. I think the xp penalty should be removed if you turn yourself in. I agree, if you're not a repeat criminal. > Blah! Bah.. Sucks doesn't it. :P
> can make life better for the majority of the people. To ensure
> the quality of life, laws must be created and obeyed. When
> people respect the laws, and try to help each other, society as
> whole prospers.
> it is a tyranny or democracy. Organization and regimentation
> bring benefits that outweigh any moral questions raised by
> their actions.
> Umm, I don't believe you have a viable point here. First off, he stated the where, but it's extremely hard to justify the who part when "An Immortal says" is rather vague as to whom you're speaking, and the where part is difficult to remember unless you logged it, and not everyone has the ability to log their sessions. So he could be lying, he might not either. You can't say his point is invalid on the basis that there's a chance he could be lying. If this were in court, I would promtly object "calls for speculation." Whereas this could be verified by speaking with the Imms and finding out if any of them recall this happening. In this case, it's not likely to happen, as the imms don't frequently comment on here, though they do occasionally, but not often.
> I've had this happen to me many times, and with no investigation, and no just cause. Someone claims I did this, or the arb just feels like making up a reason to kill me, and flags me, sends me a tell about it, and proceeds to hunt me. Every single time I've reported it, and with no apparent recourse to the arb. I can think of one time in speciffic that a certain Paladin arby lord flagged me on the sole testimony of the victim and said there were multiple witnesses, when I know for a FACT there was no one else around at the time because I was hidden nearby when it happened. True, I was playing a char who had absolutely no respect for law and was a repeat criminal, but I didn't do it that time, only witnessed it, and was flagged and persued with no investigation what-so-ever. I tried to get him to remove it and when he wouldn't, I sent a note to arbiter about it. He replied and his only answer was, "You were guilty and you know it!" To which I replied I was NOT guilty, you did NOT have any witnesses except the victim and myself, and YOU know it! You flagged me simply because the victim thought I did it and you know me to have commited crimes in the past, and simply made up witnesses to justify it. This is certainly the not type of behaviour I expect from a paladin, and moreso from an arby lord." He replied again with simply, "You're guilty so quit you're whining." This seemed to be sufficient evidence in the eyes of the cabal to justify flagging and killing someone. The flag was never removed, and in the end I got tired of putting my practice on hold to hide from an arb so I just ditched the flag by going to a very remote place and letting myself starve to death.
> If the arb deletes just because he can't kill someone who's not in his range, then he shouldn't be an arb in the first place, cause that means he only became an arb so that he could pk outside of pk range.
> I agree with the first three sentances here. But I don't care how good your gear is, you're not going to give a hero arb a run for his money when you're a rank 30 mage. It's going to be a one rounder the second the guards enter the room. The arb probably will not even have time to slap the manacles on your before you're dead, and if you do last that long, you're not getting away fast enough to give him a run. You're going to be dead before you can leave the room.
> Bah!
> Step 1: Break Law
> Step 2: Go hide someplace remote where very few people know about or ever go
> Step 3: Wait there taunting and laughing at the arbiter through tells about how you're going to avoid capture, and continue to do so until you starve to death.
> Step 4: Go get your things
> Step 5: Put them on
> Step 6: Laugh at the arbiter some more because you evaded true punishment
> Step 7: Wait til you unghost
> Step 8: Bitch like hell when the arb flags you again, just to piss you off.
> Step 9: Laugh at the arb some more when he gets booted for it.
> Step 10: Bitch some more when the arb gets reinducted the next day because he "has seen the error of his actions"