Posted by Klaak on July 8, 2000 at 12:34:57:
In Reply to: Re: Re Everything on Arbiters. posted by A coder on July 8, 2000 at 08:15:59:
> This isn't 'directed' toward you, hastur, just a reply. > > Okay This is my two cents worth. > I agree that the mud has become more geared toward RP. The fact of the matter is, if you want to get anywhere and be respected you MUST RP. If you want to just have some fun, just don't break the rules and you'll do fine. But don't expect to get into a Cabal (or stay in one) or to get a tattoo.. and don't get pissed when these things don't happen, you know the reason. > > I think Imbrogno is one of the examples of how someone should be. Imbrogno was very well roleplayed, having been in his presence a few times I can vouche for that. He was 'quirky' to some extent, and that adds a lot of personality to a character. You said, "It shouldn't make a difference if they roleplaying or not." Last time I checked this was a RP/PK MUD. > > For somone to call you a muther fucking cocksucker after you pk them Isnt ooc. Being a arbiter is as arolin says Merely a cabal. You are no higher than any other player in the game. > That might not be OOC, but why would you make your character have a role that it was appropriate to be a dickhead like that? Hmm? Just because you're in a cabal, you're right, you're not 'higher' than anyone in the game.. BUT, you do have added responsibilities. Someone won't like you. What mage likes a battle rager? Get my drift? Many people do not like Arbiters. > > - Arbiters of old used to fight and capture criminals without haveing nasty guards with them, without haveing manacles. I know because i was a arbiter during one of the roughest periods for arbiters for the last five years that i've played. > Arbiters were 'improved' as was everything/everyone else to keep pace. I was an Arbiter of Old, too, and I think the new abilities make it much more balanced. Would you rather they make it so that when you're WANTED you're automatically put into the PK range of *ANY* Arbiter? It's much easier to evade a Hero Arbiter's guards than the Hero himself/herself. > > - The laws have become more and more refined in time and some have changed. But Do rember you are there to enforce the laws, not to judge them. Many arbiters I see manipulate the laws , bend them to do their bidding. > I direct you to this popular portion of the help for Alignment. > Lawful Evil: The use of society and its laws for personal benefit. Structure and organization elevate those who deserve to rule as well as provide a clearly defined hierarchy between master and servant. Laws and societies are supported so long as they fit with personal concerns. Laws are obeyed out of fear of punishment. Lawful Good: An orderly, strong society with a well-organized government Lawful Neutral: Also believes in a strong, well-organized government, whether But this does not seem to be the generally accepted view of the arbiters. The generally accpeted view of the arbs is that the laws are to be obeyed strictly to the letter, and intent does not make bit of difference, even if that tranny slowed his untrusting groupmate so that he would heal before the criminal attacking him managed to kill him. An evil arbiter would see that as a chance to kill someone and nab their gear. A good arb should see that as a tranny trying to defend his friend who didn't have his head screwed on straight. A neutral could see it as either. > > The prime example is flagging anyone who attacks you whilst you have guards outside of town. If your not fighting the wanted criminal with your guards, or at least right on his tail - You are fair game to be pked just like anyone else. It is far from unfair cause you have two buff as fuck guards with you. > Those 'buff as fuck' guards are easily evaded. Although not forever, you can get away. You really seem to be ticked off about something, as if you were just killed for some crime you got caught doing and now yer pissed. The prime example is flagging anyone who attacks you whilst you have guards outside of town. If you're not fighting the wanted criminal with your guards, or at least right on his tail, you are fair game to be pked just like anyone else. It is far from fair because you have two buff as fuck guards with you. Arbiter's guards do not exist for the arb to cower behind and to use as an excuse to flag someone should you get attacked. They are there to help deal justice to criminals. There have been many times where I was well justified in attacking an arb, not because they were an arb, or may or may not have been persuing a criminal, but for my own RP reasons, and I attacked them outside of town and was flagged for it. Again, if the arb was evil, this is something I might expect, as they are free to stretch and bend the laws to suit them. But when this is done by a paladin, or other good arb, it again falls into the demi-plane of bullshit. > > - You are supposed to set examples to the lawless of your order and laws you enforce. Makeing assumptions and flagging people without even discussing the crime is extremly poor. Many a time i've recieved the tell of: Your wanted cause you attacked someone in town. Once even I was speak to a immortal for almost 2 hours in the realm of the dead, and got flaged before him. > Not to accuse you of lying, but how do we know this is not a made up story to support your point? To go against you, you would direct us to this part.. oh, but I talked to the Immortal in the realm of the Dead and I got flagged.. If we went against you, we would have to call you a liar. Ok, so I guess I'm calling you just a bad lawyer at proving your case. Names, places, times... Not someone, over there, um awhile ago. Umm, I don't believe you have a viable point here. First off, he stated the where, but it's extremely hard to justify the who part when "An Immortal says" is rather vague as to whom you're speaking, and the where part is difficult to remember unless you logged it, and not everyone has the ability to log their sessions. So he could be lying, he might not either. You can't say his point is invalid on the basis that there's a chance he could be lying. If this were in court, I would promtly object "calls for speculation." Whereas this could be verified by speaking with the Imms and finding out if any of them recall this happening. In this case, it's not likely to happen, as the imms don't frequently comment on here, though they do occasionally, but not often. >Another point.. 'many times I received the tell of You're wanted because you attacked someone in town.' Did you? It has been my experience that the Arbiters do investigate, and if they don't you should contact the higher ups. I've had this happen to me many times, and with no investigation, and no just cause. Someone claims I did this, or the arb just feels like making up a reason to kill me, and flags me, sends me a tell about it, and proceeds to hunt me. Every single time I've reported it, and with no apparent recourse to the arb. I can think of one time in speciffic that a certain Paladin arby lord flagged me on the sole testimony of the victim and said there were multiple witnesses, when I know for a FACT there was no one else around at the time because I was hidden nearby when it happened. True, I was playing a char who had absolutely no respect for law and was a repeat criminal, but I didn't do it that time, only witnessed it, and was flagged and persued with no investigation what-so-ever. I tried to get him to remove it and when he wouldn't, I sent a note to arbiter about it. He replied and his only answer was, "You were guilty and you know it!" To which I replied I was NOT guilty, you did NOT have any witnesses except the victim and myself, and YOU know it! You flagged me simply because the victim thought I did it and you know me to have commited crimes in the past, and simply made up witnesses to justify it. This is certainly the not type of behaviour I expect from a paladin, and moreso from an arby lord." He replied again with simply, "You're guilty so quit you're whining." This seemed to be sufficient evidence in the eyes of the cabal to justify flagging and killing someone. The flag was never removed, and in the end I got tired of putting my practice on hold to hide from an arb so I just ditched the flag by going to a very remote place and letting myself starve to death. >It is to be expected that even the Arbiters have the wool pulled over their eyes sometimes, they're only human. If the Immortals intended it to be perfect, they would code it that if you attacked someone in a protected area you would be made wanted immediately. No question about it, computers don't lie. Would you like that? Of course not. The thrill of somehow evading the Law is something that drives at least a decent percentage of people playing CF... the Immortals know this. Also, a group that is generally 'hated' is needed in a World... hence the Arbiters. If you have different goals with someone, you can always find common ground with them by bitching out the Arbiters. The Immortals know this. > > Anyway enough of my bitching, here are some simple, really simple solutions to the problem at hand. > > make guards area only, thereforce they cannot be taken outside of town. > Oh that's right, sort of how if you commit a crime in a state and you drive to the Mexican border police cars can't follow you over the border. I think that's bullshit in real life, and I think that's a bullshit suggestion in fantasy life. > > change manacles so that it isnt so harsh on mages. Perhaps reduce spells and skills % working by 35%, therefor a warrior who is manacled isnt as dangerous as he was when he wasnt. And mages wouldnt be totaly useless when manacled. > > 1) A device for confining the hands, usually consisting of a set of two metal rings that are fastened about the wrists and joined by a metal chain. > Off the top of my head, the only spell a mage should be able to cast while his hands are restrained is ventriloquate. 1) A device for confining the hands, usually consisting of a set of two metal rings that are fastened about the wrists and joined by a metal chain. The fact that they are joined by a chain, means that total wrist movement is not stopped. Last I checked, a chain was not a bar. Limited wrist movement should make it much harder to cast, but not impossible. I think it should prevent word of recall, and teleport, and reduce chance to cast offensive spells about about 35% (I think that was a reasonable reduction). This way manacles are not worthless against a mage, but at the same time, a manacled mage is not worthless. They still have somewhat of a chance to fight back, should they choose to, instead of thier only options being die, or carrying a potion of return/teleport, wand of return, or orb of travel. > Crime would go up significantly. I know I would take advantage of that and laugh at the Arbiter. Arbiter = Frustrated. Arbiter Deletes. People in that Arbiters range breath easier. > Solution: Don't break the Law! It is up to the Arbiter's discretion what they want to return or not. Hell, they deserve to take your equipment. If you have anything decent you probably have given them a run for their money. Which I mean is at least an hour of REAL TIME chasing. They could have spent that time re-equipping, but couldn't... because they are bound by responsibility. > Unrealistic. Agreed > > - Make all mob associated wanted kills like old Nt, you dont actually die , you end up in a cell - nakid. Eq dested. 24 ticks. > I'd rather be killed with an exp hole than to be in a cell for a day. I wouldn't, but I still feel this is unrealistic. I think the xp penalty should be removed if you turn yourself in. > > - Have a place where you can hand yourself in, where you end up in a cell with no eq for 24 ticks. > Step 1: Break Law > Blah. Bah! Blah!
> > First of all some little tid bit side notes.
> > - This mud has changed alot in the last couple years.****** BUT ******* It is not compulsary 100% to rp to ones best ability. A couple years ago cf was quiet relaxed and people would talk about the superbowl or olympics over Cb, they would talk about a nice party they went to or what ever. The players then didnt care if they rped or not.
> > Some of the newer players have come to the assumption that you have to be a Good Rper to play at cf. That is total fucking bullshit. You can rp if you want and the Immortals might grant you a benifit for doing so. Titles are often granted for small well preformed roleplaying.
> > - Imbrogno, I've read some of your replies and i think your a prime example of a what not to do-be person. You discriminate against those who dont roleplay well. It shouldnt make a difference if they roleplay or not.
The problem with arbs in this respect, is that it's not just the evil arbs. I would expect such from evil arbs, as that's what lawful evil is, but when Lawful good arbs start doing it, THAT'S when it becomes bullshit. I direct you to the other descriptions of lawful in the help alignment:
can make life better for the majority of the people. To ensure
the quality of life, laws must be created and obeyed. When
people respect the laws, and try to help each other, society as
whole prospers.
it is a tyranny or democracy. Organization and regimentation
bring benefits that outweigh any moral questions raised by
their actions.
Whether he is ticked off about getting caught doing a crime has nothing to do with the point he just stated. I'll restate his point since you seem to have entirely missed the whole concept:
> > You dont need them to raid, cabals where a criminal might be in.
> man·a·cle - noun
> 2) Something that confines or restrains.
>
> > Make manacles pk only. Even better make guards as well pk only.
If the arb deletes just because he can't kill someone who's not in his range, then he shouldn't be an arb in the first place, cause that means he only became an arb so that he could pk outside of pk range.
> > PS:
> > Greedy arbiters, You all know who you are.
> > The policy of returning some equipment is so bent it isnt funny, You all take what you need and return the rest, I got a flag for pking in town, my first flag was a level 48. I decided to hand myself in. The arbiter said as my punishment I would recieve nothing in return. I later found out that he had just died. (personaly i would have killed myself, but it was against my rp and my set tho nice wasnt elite.)
I agree with the first three sentances here. But I don't care how good your gear is, you're not going to give a hero arb a run for his money when you're a rank 30 mage. It's going to be a one rounder the second the guards enter the room. The arb probably will not even have time to slap the manacles on your before you're dead, and if you do last that long, you're not getting away fast enough to give him a run. You're going to be dead before you can leave the room.
> > - Perhaps make it so guards cannot loot corpses.
> Step 2: Drop equipment somewhere
> Step 3: Turn self in
> Step 4: Make snack
> Step 5: Eat snack
> Step 6: Wash face, hands
> Step 7: Tap foot while waiting the last 3-5 ticks.
> Step 8: Get equipment
> Step 9: Laugh at how you evaded true punishment
Step 1: Break Law
Step 2: Go hide someplace remote where very few people know about or ever go
Step 3: Wait there taunting and laughing at the arbiter through tells about how you're going to avoid capture, and continue to do so until you starve to death.
Step 4: Go get your things
Step 5: Put them on
Step 6: Laugh at the arbiter some more because you evaded true punishment
Step 7: Wait til you unghost
Step 8: Bitch like hell when the arb flags you again, just to piss you off.
Step 9: Laugh at the arb some more when he gets booted for it.
Step 10: Bitch some more when the arb gets reinducted the next day because he "has seen the error of his actions"