Counterpoint.

Counterpoint.:
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Posted by An Immortal(IMM) on July 19, 2000 at 11:42:18:

In Reply to: Re: posted by Rooqweaz on July 19, 2000 at 10:17:57:

Not to get into a pissing match, but if you look at ranger and assassin and compare them to warrior or thief they do have a number of "mystical" skills:

Ranger:
Armor
Barkskin
Butcher
Call Lightning
Camp
Control Weather
Dark Vision
Entangle
Fashion Staff
Find Water
Herbs
Imbue Staff
Protection Heat Cold
Snare
Tame

Assassin:
Bindwounds
Blindness Dust
Dark Vision
Endure
Heightened Awareness
Mark
Locate Mark
Owaza
Poison dagger
Poison Darts
Poison Smoke
Tiger Claw
Vanish

You can argue that these aren't mystical, but by the definition that I presented they are mystical. They have spell like effects. Some other of their skills COULD be included too, but these are the ones that really stand out.

One could say that the Races are more balanced than before with their new Vulns and such, and perhaps some of them can be relooked at, but Cloud Giants get resistance to weapons, large size, dual-wield two handed, fly, and great warrior-type stats. Their vulns are rough, but not as rough as say Felar or arial. Clouds aren't out of line.

Of course we can go back in "I'm right, you're wrong" all day but I'd greatly prefer we didn't. I posted this as one example of "Immortal Point of View" and not to argue about it. You can be sure that things like this are often reviewed, and sometimes they fall behind things like the recent Paladin upgrade and other things to come.

Now... if your point was that the changes of Conjurers and Invokers have changed the value of some racial Vulns... that is a more intersting topic. Looking at how Arials and Felars are harder to play now with the rise in magical attacks that hurt them is a quite interesting debate point. Of course I could argue that Arials at least were overpowered until this point, especially with the rise of Specialization... but that's another arguemnent.

> Both extracost for classes and races are just obsolete.
> they came from 1 Age
> A lot things changed but extracost.

> These two categories mystical/physical
> were an excuse in 1 or 2 age

> Let's say assassins don't have too many mystical skills
> as well as rangers

> I have heard yet another explanation
> like offensive/defensive classes.
> Those who are in both categories have extra cost
> this don't work well now too
> (for example conjurers)

> Considering extra cost for races:
> well, you may agree with 500extra to old clouds
> but current clouds aren't that tough (and still have
> the same extra cost), etc

> Extra costs are just obsolete and should be reconsidered
> (or maybe removed with some minor balancing).

Follow Ups:

Counter counterpoint Someone 19:00:39 7/19/2000 (19)
- Re: Counter counterpoint The Above Immortal(IMM) 06:50:22 7/20/2000 (0)
- The type of character you are interested in is apparent here... Dural 20:49:14 7/19/2000 (16)
  - Re: The type of character you are interested in is apparent here... Thoroughly singed someone 14:51:12 7/20/2000 (0)
  - Re: The type of character you are interested in is apparent here... Ranger Neophyte 21:25:33 7/19/2000 (14)
    - KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF STAVES!! Graham 00:19:38 7/20/2000 (12)
      - And scrolls for that matter. Both are -very- powerful skills to have. (n/t) Proud Blade(VIP) 01:24:04 7/20/2000 (11)
        
        Rangers are supposed wild beings... Ranger Neophyte 07:08:08 7/20/2000 (10)
        
        *played to the tune of Dragnet* DUMB DE DUMB DUMB Imbrogno 07:47:24 7/20/2000 (9)
        
        Re: *played to the tune of Dragnet* DUMB DE DUMB DUMB Ranger Neophyte 08:24:53 7/20/2000 (8)
        
        time to make that jump from newbie to... Dural 09:00:59 7/20/2000 (2)
        
        I know Kamal used scrolls, potions, staves as well. nt Imbrogno 09:08:22 7/20/2000 (1)
        
        Most of them do. It's just that a lot of the more useful ones for rangers don't have obvious, visible effects. (n/t) Proud Blade(VIP) 21:19:14 7/20/2000 (0)
        
        *applies pressure with two fingers to the bridge of his nose and slaps his forehead* Imbrogno 08:35:15 7/20/2000 (0)
        
        So...because it's not in -your- role every other ranger loses out? Graham 08:33:41 7/20/2000 (3)
        
        Never said rangers should loose it, merely that I find it paradoxical... Ranger Neophyte 08:48:04 7/20/2000 (1)
        
        Um... Umguy 09:07:56 7/20/2000 (0)
        
        Well we know what Graham is playing :) nt Imbrogno 08:37:54 7/20/2000 (0)
    - Re: The type of character you are interested in is apparent here... theidiot 23:15:29 7/19/2000 (0)
- Re: Counter counterpoint Same someone 19:11:12 7/19/2000 (0)

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Comments:	> Not to get into a pissing match, but if you look at ranger and assassin and compare them to warrior or thief they do have a number of "mystical" skills: > Ranger: > Armor > Barkskin > Butcher > Call Lightning > Camp > Control Weather > Dark Vision > Entangle > Fashion Staff > Find Water > Herbs > Imbue Staff > Protection Heat Cold > Snare > Tame > Assassin: > Bindwounds > Blindness Dust > Dark Vision > Endure > Heightened Awareness > Mark > Locate Mark > Owaza > Poison dagger > Poison Darts > Poison Smoke > Tiger Claw > Vanish > You can argue that these aren't mystical, but by the definition that I presented they are mystical. They have spell like effects. Some other of their skills COULD be included too, but these are the ones that really stand out. > One could say that the Races are more balanced than before with their new Vulns and such, and perhaps some of them can be relooked at, but Cloud Giants get resistance to weapons, large size, dual-wield two handed, fly, and great warrior-type stats. Their vulns are rough, but not as rough as say Felar or arial. Clouds aren't out of line. > Of course we can go back in "I'm right, you're wrong" all day but I'd greatly prefer we didn't. I posted this as one example of "Immortal Point of View" and not to argue about it. You can be sure that things like this are often reviewed, and sometimes they fall behind things like the recent Paladin upgrade and other things to come. > Now... if your point was that the changes of Conjurers and Invokers have changed the value of some racial Vulns... that is a more intersting topic. Looking at how Arials and Felars are harder to play now with the rise in magical attacks that hurt them is a quite interesting debate point. Of course I could argue that Arials at least were overpowered until this point, especially with the rise of Specialization... but that's another arguemnent. > > > Both extracost for classes and races are just obsolete. > > they came from 1 Age > > A lot things changed but extracost. > > These two categories mystical/physical > > were an excuse in 1 or 2 age > > Let's say assassins don't have too many mystical skills > > as well as rangers > > I have heard yet another explanation > > like offensive/defensive classes. > > Those who are in both categories have extra cost > > this don't work well now too > > (for example conjurers) > > Considering extra cost for races: > > well, you may agree with 500extra to old clouds > > but current clouds aren't that tough (and still have > > the same extra cost), etc > > Extra costs are just obsolete and should be reconsidered > > (or maybe removed with some minor balancing).

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