Re: Not quite...

April 06, 2008 11:53AM
My last post may have been taken out of context I didn't say human artists had to be trained in every brush stroke. I meant to infer that if human beings were automatically born with the creative talent of, say, Picasso we wouldn't have any use for Art departments. They are not, however, and artistic creativity, like any other discipline is learned and encouraged in our education system. Artistic techniques learned in an art class are rather advanced modes of expressing creativity when considering our primary ability.

The initial cognitive development that is required is taught and encouraged in us from a young age. Furthermore, human brains have likely evolved over thousands of years to increase our creative capacity.

You can see this in Neanderthal cave paintings. They are hardly what we would consider 'impressive' nowadays in an artistic sense. They are little more than a child's drawing in comparison to something intricate like Realist art, for example. If you then go to Medieval Europe and look at the art then (ala the Bayeux Tapestry) you will notice that the figures are distinctly more human looking but lack perspective. Put into historical context however, they are both quite impressive examples of art.

What I'm saying is yes, elephants would need to be taught how to paint for two reasons. Firstly, there is no easily available art such as picture books or encouragement in the wild to exhibit this creativity and secondly were they an inherently creative species they lack an easily available mode of expressing any creativity they might have (no ability to create a paint brush, mix primitive paints from ground up minerals etc.)

It would be interesting to see if a baby elephant was brought up and taught to paint, whether they would ever deviate from the brush strokes they are taught.

Either way you can't say they are not comparable to humans in their creative capacity given the evolutionary time frame and cognitive development given to most human babies, just like I can't say they they are. Obviously an Elephant would not stand up to a human at present in a test of creativity.

I have a feeling we are of like minds on this one though.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2008 11:56AM by istirith.
Subject Author Posted

This has to be fake. Right?

Lokain April 02, 2008 08:48AM

Regardless of people saying the elephant was trained..

istirith April 05, 2008 08:21PM

Not quite...

Java April 05, 2008 08:37PM

Re: Not quite...

istirith April 06, 2008 11:53AM

But using the examples you cited...

Java April 06, 2008 01:58PM

You use a very fixed definition of Art.

Yhorian(VIP) April 06, 2008 08:30PM

Humans ground up and produced their own paints and painted with their fingers. Elephants lack that capability.

istirith April 06, 2008 02:07PM

I think that needs highlighting.

Yhorian(VIP) April 07, 2008 10:16AM

Re: I think that needs highlighting.

istirith April 07, 2008 10:46AM

My point was.

Yhorian(VIP) April 07, 2008 12:54PM

Let's take another angle to this

DurNominator(VIP) April 06, 2008 07:30AM

An elephants motivation's

Yhorian(VIP) April 06, 2008 08:25PM

Umm.. that's a retarded argument.

Java April 07, 2008 06:13AM

He does it because you're the pack leader

DurNominator(VIP) April 07, 2008 10:05PM

The fact you're comparing a dog to an elephant says it all dude. nt

Yhorian(VIP) April 07, 2008 06:37AM

Says what, that I'm right?

Java April 07, 2008 06:46AM

You know I'm a sciences major right? I have studied sociobiology to a university level.

Yhorian(VIP) April 07, 2008 09:34AM

I don't personally care what you study, honestly..

Java April 07, 2008 11:30AM

You are wrong about dogs

ExPaladin(VIP) April 07, 2008 04:00PM

That's true enough, but..

Java April 07, 2008 04:28PM

Wow, you took my comment, threw it out the window, and made one up of your own to argue.

Yhorian(VIP) April 07, 2008 12:49PM

Ummm, no. Try reading the sentence just before that little quote

Java April 07, 2008 12:58PM

Lol. It's like watching a dog chase it's tail. I'm going to leave you to it. nt

Yhorian(VIP) April 07, 2008 01:00PM

Nice try, buddy. But let me run this down for you real quick.

Java April 07, 2008 01:05PM

Walking away, I'm affraid. Later. nt

Yhorian(VIP) April 07, 2008 01:07PM

I love it when people pull this card. It usually means they don't have a very good handle on the argument.

Jib April 07, 2008 11:11AM

I whole heartedly agree. nt

Yhorian(VIP) April 07, 2008 12:46PM

Exactly.

istirith April 07, 2008 12:18PM

As an Art Major seeking his BFA...

Splntrd April 06, 2008 06:31AM

Spot on with the kindergarten thing.

istirith April 06, 2008 11:21AM

I think..

Java April 06, 2008 02:05PM

You assume a lot about the elephants perception we just don't know. nt

Yhorian(VIP) April 06, 2008 08:15PM

What can I say? I learn from the best.

Java April 07, 2008 06:16AM

Wow you're bitter and conceited. And clearly affraid of learning, lest it be attributed to me.. nt

Yhorian(VIP) April 07, 2008 10:18AM

You ASSume a lot. ~

_Magus_ April 07, 2008 11:29AM

Fair point nt

istirith April 06, 2008 02:20PM

Then you haven't been into an architecture class :P nt

Yhorian(VIP) April 06, 2008 05:01AM

I could have sworn we were talking about painting. I sure must look a fool. nt

Java April 06, 2008 05:06AM

Meanwhile, Java taught himself to fly a fighter jet

Graham April 06, 2008 02:57AM

I really don't think I need to explain how retarded that is. nt

Java April 06, 2008 04:43AM

Re: I really don't think I need to explain how retarded that is. nt

Graham April 06, 2008 05:36AM

Umm... no I'm not.

Java April 06, 2008 05:46AM

As much as a bug out as it is, some mammals are as self aware as we are and

ORB April 02, 2008 06:46PM

Damn, I know elephants are smart...

_Magus_ April 02, 2008 05:05PM

probably real. but i'm sure it was trained. nt

Isildur(VIP) April 02, 2008 10:28AM

Yeah. Once we start finding ancient elephant cave paintings I'm on board..

Jib April 02, 2008 09:53PM

Yet they made graveyards, and open mine minerals. Why is replicating an image with lines so far out of it?

Yhorian(VIP) April 03, 2008 02:42AM

I agree with that pretty much except for the part where the elephants would ever paint on their own without a person "encouraging" or "rewarding" them.

Jib April 03, 2008 01:40PM

Art is a strange thing, I wouldn't say it is our invention we just have a unique view on what is art

Guy April 03, 2008 11:35PM

especially if they realize they get rewarded for doing it. n/t

hopelessdwarf April 03, 2008 12:59PM

I'm not sure I'd bet on that.

Yhorian(VIP) April 02, 2008 04:11PM

You're a major space cadet man

Rade April 05, 2008 01:48PM

Re: You're a major space cadet man

Death_Claw April 08, 2008 03:09AM

Re: You're a major space cadet man

DurNominator(VIP) April 08, 2008 05:57AM

Thing is...

Yhorian(VIP) April 05, 2008 02:33PM

Oh, and way to dodge me calling you out for VIP abuse

Rade April 05, 2008 07:56PM

You see? This post is exactly why people flame you!

Rade April 05, 2008 07:45PM

This is why you're dumb.

Java April 04, 2008 02:15AM

Its pretty funny.

Death_Claw April 07, 2008 09:50PM

Thanks for that link. This all makes a lot more sense now. *not sarcasm* n/t.

Jib April 04, 2008 11:52AM

That really is your only argument 'Yhorian is dumb'. You'd pretty much be lost if you couldn't post that.

Yhorian(VIP) April 04, 2008 10:16AM

Personal attack. n/t

jalim January 04, 2011 11:53AM

<3 (n/t)

Matrik January 04, 2011 11:57AM

Fake Post. (n/t)

Jib January 04, 2011 12:10PM

I love you Yhorian

Java April 04, 2008 01:33PM

You only showed that the elephant was trained.

Balrahd(VIP) April 05, 2008 12:24AM

You're right..

Java April 05, 2008 03:35AM

Wow, that's really elaborate painting. I see two naked chicks snowballing each other. ~

_Magus_ April 05, 2008 01:14PM

Elephants are self-aware. But the greater point proved is you really enjoy being a cock. nt

Yhorian(VIP) April 04, 2008 02:17PM

Java doesn't enjoy being a cock as much as you enjoy being a douche fag. ~

_Magus_ April 04, 2008 05:24PM

Have to agree with magus on this one, your post was a bunch of ridiculous acidic drivel n/t

Guy April 04, 2008 09:21PM

The point you might have missed me making was both posts were acidic drivel..

Yhorian(VIP) April 05, 2008 02:47AM

Funny.. I thought mine won by at least being RIGHT.

Java April 05, 2008 03:40AM

Blah, blah, blah. You only proved they were trained dude. I didn't say they weren't.

Yhorian(VIP) April 05, 2008 09:47AM



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