Not all of that is correct

December 13, 2008 07:46AM
First of all in the manufacturing business it's very common for manufacturers to hire a bunch of people during the busy season and then lay them off during the slow season. Similar to how a lot of retailers hire temporary workers during the Christmas season... anyways, that's what the job bank is about. And yes it's a horrible idea but there's about 3k workers in the job bank right now which sounds like a lot but really it's a tiny fraction of auto workers. Yes what remains of it needs to be gotten rid of, but don't be fooled into thinking that this is a major issue for GM. It's a drop in the bucket.

As for the UAW salaries it is true that they're generally higher than their non-unionized counterparts but they're not an order of magnitude higher.

The biggest problem for the big 3, by far, in relation to the UAW is actually a complex combination of events. You see, the big 3 have been around a long time. They've been around since long before the ERISA in 1974, which were the laws which basically created the idea of the 401k and company match. Before then, it was all pensions. In 1974, GM, for instance, had something like 50% (not sure what it really was, but it was crazy high) of the auto market in the US. Now they have only 20% of the auto market. Couple that with advancing technologies and the number of people on the ground required to make vehicles at GM has gone down significantly. GM has 4 times as many pensioners living today than they have workers remaining. Not only that, but the healthcare costs for those pensioners has grown exponentially over the past decade. Now, Honda, Nissan, and Toyota do not have that kind of baggage because they did not really pick up market share in the US until after the ERISA laws came into play. That's where the propagandized figure of $70/hr average for GM workers that you may have heard. The UAW workers aren't seeing anything close to that money. That number is derived by taking the total amount being paid to current workers plus the total being paid to pensioners and dividing by only the current workers. Essentially I'm just making this point to reaffirm my previous statement that UAW workers don't make an order of magnitude more than the other guys.

So we have this weird problem caused by a historical change to the way we handled retirement 34 years ago. When and if the big 3 go down the first thing they'll do in bankruptcy court is absolve themselves of those pensions... which is good for GM et. al because that's where a lot of their big problems come from. This is REALLY REALLY BAD for the people because to put it into modern terms (under the new retirement plan paradigm) it would be as if your employer came back to you 20 years later and took every cent of company match plus any earnings you got off that company match back out of your 401k.

I wish I had a solution, but I don't. Frankly in my opinion someone's going to get caught holding the bag on this and in a completely unabashedly selfish fashion I'm just hoping it's someone besides me. But I think we all know that the government is going to pay whatever it takes to 'fix' this which means we'll all lose out either in taxes or more likely dollar devaluation.
Subject Author Posted

Comment on the bailouts

Rade December 13, 2008 03:09AM

Re: Comment on the bailouts

ExPaladin(VIP) December 15, 2008 04:55AM

That's great! n/t

Lokain December 15, 2008 09:15AM

Lolled. NT

Batman December 15, 2008 05:10AM

Not the end of the world, more like a dystopian cyberpunk future

morocco December 13, 2008 08:26AM

Let's hope. NT

Batman December 14, 2008 02:13PM

I'd be fine with the bailout, if they got rid of the unions.

vladamir December 13, 2008 07:36AM

Your wrong on a few points i think

joe December 15, 2008 10:07AM

I disagree to a large extent, foreign car companies deal with them just fine

ORB December 15, 2008 07:43AM

Re: I disagree to a large extent, foreign car companies deal with them just fine

joe December 16, 2008 05:31PM

I'm anti-union/anti-min wage.

Pro December 15, 2008 06:22AM

I think the liberals and conservatives both have the wrong idea

Rade December 17, 2008 02:32AM

Re: I'm anti-union/anti-min wage.

Isildur(VIP) December 16, 2008 12:56PM

Do you know what you are talking about?

joe December 15, 2008 10:12AM

None of what you listed would happen.

Pro December 15, 2008 06:54PM

What did i list would happen??!? nt

Graham December 17, 2008 09:46AM

you don't know what you are talking about

joe December 16, 2008 11:09AM

As if employer organizations don't fight for employers rights.

DurNominator(VIP) December 16, 2008 10:40AM

Honestly?

joe December 15, 2008 05:14PM

Meaning: I could write something, but I won't because I really can't.

Batman December 16, 2008 06:02AM

I really could write a lot about the good unions do

joe December 16, 2008 05:26PM

Well, let's hear your argument, please. NT

Batman December 18, 2008 06:59AM

Unions have improved the working conditions of their members.

DurNominator(VIP) December 21, 2008 11:00AM

meant to be under Graham's post. mt

joe December 15, 2008 05:15PM

Feel free to name a useful union. n/t

Graham December 15, 2008 11:48AM

THE MLB PLAYERS ASSOCIATION!!! NT

Lokain December 15, 2008 01:34PM

PUMA Prostitutes Union of Massachusetts NT

Batman December 15, 2008 12:29PM

Cosign on the Unions

cyril December 15, 2008 07:52AM

this is said only by people not working labor or those being raped. nt

joe December 16, 2008 11:13AM

I can agree

cyril December 16, 2008 12:10PM

I don't think unions are the cause of this

vortex_magus December 14, 2008 02:07AM

The Unions and Democrats are the cause of this.

Pro December 15, 2008 06:21AM

And yet the repubs went down in flames and are going to remain in the wilderness for years to come nt

Scrimbul December 15, 2008 08:05AM

Let's hope.

Pro December 15, 2008 06:56PM

Yes, Pro. We Know You're Against Everything.

Scrimbul December 15, 2008 08:57PM

You're an idiot. Stop adding shit to threads. nt

demos December 15, 2008 07:09AM

For the last time

katistrofik December 13, 2008 10:20AM

See my "not all of that is correct" post under Graham

Rade December 13, 2008 07:54AM

Re: See my "not all of that is correct" post under Graham

Graham December 13, 2008 10:14AM

My problem is it's being presented as black & white

ExPaladin(VIP) December 13, 2008 03:23AM

Basically this.

Death_Claw December 18, 2008 08:14AM

Re: My problem is it's being presented as black & white

Graham December 13, 2008 06:53AM

Not all of that is correct

Rade December 13, 2008 07:46AM

You appear to not understand the job bank.

Graham December 13, 2008 10:12AM

Solution.

The Forsaken(VIP) December 13, 2008 08:57AM

BK would destroy what little confidence people have left in the brands

Rade December 13, 2008 05:10AM



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