Re: I'm anti-union/anti-min wage.

December 16, 2008 12:56PM
I sort of agree. Sort of. Mostly with regard to the minimum wage. Numerous articles have been written by people who *support* helping the poor arguing that the minimum wage is a terrible way to achieve that end.

Here's the deal:

Here in the U.S. we have this notion of a minimum standard of living. Depending on where you're located, that implies a minimum cost of living in order to achieve that standard. The idea behind the minimum wage is that someone earning that wage would be able to maintain our pre-defined minimum standard of living in "most parts of the country", i.e. ignoring pathological locations like NYC, San Francisco, etc.

Problem is, lots of jobs require very little skills. There are folks in other countries who not only 1) don't have the same minimum standard of living requirement, but also 2) have a lower overall cost of living, who are ready and willing to perform those jobs. Since they're willing to accept what we would term an "unacceptably low" standard of living, and pay less to achieve that standard, they can work for less.

Voila: a huge incentive to outsource labor.

One solution is to come at the "minimum standard of living" problem another way and make it so that basic services are provided for free, but do away with the minimum wage. Workers can afford to "live" on a smaller wage since, presumably, they wouldn't have to pay for things like health care, their kids' tuition, etc. The cost of providing this artificially high standard of living for unskilled workers (relative to global standards) would then be shouldered by "all taxpayers" instead of by their individual employers.

If you restrict access to these nationalized services only to citizens and legal residents then voila- you've just put U.S. unskilled labor on an equal footing (cost-wise) with illegal labor while still affording legal workers the artificially high standard of living.

The down side to this approach, unfortunately, is that it mitigates the effect one's wage has on one's overall standard of living. The smaller that effect gets, the less motivation an unskilled person has to even work at all. If I can only earn $2/hr, then maybe that's just not worth my time and effort? Maybe I'm better off doing something illegal, mooching off a relative, or attempting to fraudulently access govt. assistance.

This isn't an issue in third-world countries since there is virtually no govt. assistance to speak of, so if you don't work then you don't eat. Unfortunately if you ~legitimately~ can't work then you still don't eat. That's the negative consequence of having no safety net.

Personally, I think we should move back to a more market-driven approach where employers are free to pay people what their skills are "worth". If we're going to attempt to guarantee a certain minimum standard of living, which I think is a good idea, then we should do so by providing certain services for free (e.g. health care) and passing regulations that set minimum quality standards for things like food, housing, etc. (Which we already have.)

One side note: assistance programs like section 8 housing are, interestingly, sort of like a subsidy for businesses. If someone only has to pay 50% of their housing costs, then they can afford to live somewhere and take a lower wage. Remove that housing subsidy and something has to give. Either the person's employer pays them a higher wage, or they move somewhere else with a lower cost of living (or higher wages). So, in a sense, the subsidy is ~enabling~ the business to pay that employee an artificially low wage, relative to what the market would otherwise demand.
Subject Author Posted

Comment on the bailouts

Rade December 13, 2008 03:09AM

Re: Comment on the bailouts

ExPaladin(VIP) December 15, 2008 04:55AM

That's great! n/t

Lokain December 15, 2008 09:15AM

Lolled. NT

Batman December 15, 2008 05:10AM

Not the end of the world, more like a dystopian cyberpunk future

morocco December 13, 2008 08:26AM

Let's hope. NT

Batman December 14, 2008 02:13PM

I'd be fine with the bailout, if they got rid of the unions.

vladamir December 13, 2008 07:36AM

Your wrong on a few points i think

joe December 15, 2008 10:07AM

I disagree to a large extent, foreign car companies deal with them just fine

ORB December 15, 2008 07:43AM

Re: I disagree to a large extent, foreign car companies deal with them just fine

joe December 16, 2008 05:31PM

I'm anti-union/anti-min wage.

Pro December 15, 2008 06:22AM

I think the liberals and conservatives both have the wrong idea

Rade December 17, 2008 02:32AM

Re: I'm anti-union/anti-min wage.

Isildur(VIP) December 16, 2008 12:56PM

Do you know what you are talking about?

joe December 15, 2008 10:12AM

None of what you listed would happen.

Pro December 15, 2008 06:54PM

What did i list would happen??!? nt

Graham December 17, 2008 09:46AM

you don't know what you are talking about

joe December 16, 2008 11:09AM

As if employer organizations don't fight for employers rights.

DurNominator(VIP) December 16, 2008 10:40AM

Honestly?

joe December 15, 2008 05:14PM

Meaning: I could write something, but I won't because I really can't.

Batman December 16, 2008 06:02AM

I really could write a lot about the good unions do

joe December 16, 2008 05:26PM

Well, let's hear your argument, please. NT

Batman December 18, 2008 06:59AM

Unions have improved the working conditions of their members.

DurNominator(VIP) December 21, 2008 11:00AM

meant to be under Graham's post. mt

joe December 15, 2008 05:15PM

Feel free to name a useful union. n/t

Graham December 15, 2008 11:48AM

THE MLB PLAYERS ASSOCIATION!!! NT

Lokain December 15, 2008 01:34PM

PUMA Prostitutes Union of Massachusetts NT

Batman December 15, 2008 12:29PM

Cosign on the Unions

cyril December 15, 2008 07:52AM

this is said only by people not working labor or those being raped. nt

joe December 16, 2008 11:13AM

I can agree

cyril December 16, 2008 12:10PM

I don't think unions are the cause of this

vortex_magus December 14, 2008 02:07AM

The Unions and Democrats are the cause of this.

Pro December 15, 2008 06:21AM

And yet the repubs went down in flames and are going to remain in the wilderness for years to come nt

Scrimbul December 15, 2008 08:05AM

Let's hope.

Pro December 15, 2008 06:56PM

Yes, Pro. We Know You're Against Everything.

Scrimbul December 15, 2008 08:57PM

You're an idiot. Stop adding shit to threads. nt

demos December 15, 2008 07:09AM

For the last time

katistrofik December 13, 2008 10:20AM

See my "not all of that is correct" post under Graham

Rade December 13, 2008 07:54AM

Re: See my "not all of that is correct" post under Graham

Graham December 13, 2008 10:14AM

My problem is it's being presented as black & white

ExPaladin(VIP) December 13, 2008 03:23AM

Basically this.

Death_Claw December 18, 2008 08:14AM

Re: My problem is it's being presented as black & white

Graham December 13, 2008 06:53AM

Not all of that is correct

Rade December 13, 2008 07:46AM

You appear to not understand the job bank.

Graham December 13, 2008 10:12AM

Solution.

The Forsaken(VIP) December 13, 2008 08:57AM

BK would destroy what little confidence people have left in the brands

Rade December 13, 2008 05:10AM



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