I am curious about your underlying assumptions.

May 23, 2017 03:44PM
I responded to parts of your manifesto, but in your rebuttal of my positions I realize that I dared to respond without fully understanding your underlying assumptions. To better understand you, I am going to ask you questions. as you see fit.

Quote
Rade
Social security worked out pretty well for the first generation who received it, because they didn't have to pay for it. For everyone else it's been a redistribution of wealth from poor minorities to relatively wealthy white people. The fact of the matter is that poor people die before they make their money back from SS. So SS is both racist and regressive. It's absurd that any leftist would support it.

So you believe it would be in the best interests for the elderly poor to have no financial safety net? I concede that U.S. minority populations have a shorter life expectancy than the white population, but do you happen to have the financial numbers handy to back up your claim that minority populations (which also happen to be disproportionately poor) contribute more toward SS than the more affluent white population? Alternatively, if minority life expectancy were improved, would they not receive more appropriate SS funds? If so, this becomes an argument for better health care access. Either way, you have me curious about the numbers.


Quote
Rade
It's virtually impossible to have a monopoly without government protection. And most monopolies in the industrial revolution failed without government intervention. The names escape me at the moment but several of them were even taken to court, sued under monopoly laws, won the lawsuits so they weren't broken up, but still fell apart within a short period of time. One of those examples of monopolies was AT&T, without which we wouldn't have had Bell Labs and our technology would be significantly set back. Temporary monopolies that pop up, as long as it remains a free-ish market, and can waste ridiculous amounts of money (kind of like government does) have significant benefits to go along with their drawbacks.
Really? Huh. I remembered AT&T actually was broken up when I was in middle school. [en.wikipedia.org].
I also remember my parents complained because prices did not improve with the artifical free market this was supposed to create, maybe because AT&T still owned the lines, but rented out to the new carriers. Switching from AT&T to Sprint or US West essentially changed only to whom they made the check out. As a 1970s-1991 Republican, I like the merit-based individualism the free market approach promises, but I haven't really seen where the unregulated markets works for the long term for anyone other than the person/corporation that 'wins'. Is there such a thing as a perfectly functioning free market that doesn't exploit the workers and the consumers, and if so, where/what is it?

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Rade
>Private for-profit schools
Any schools that want to be able to accept public funds (vouchers) must meet the same education criteria the public school has. So that answers your concerns about whether or not they'd actually educate people. Once it does that, I don't see what the big deal is about whether they take a profit home. I'm happy to incentivize schools for being the best. That's the problem with public schools, they're currently a monopoly and have not incentive whatsoever except to protect their own monopoly position.
It has been a long-standing policy in my state that parents could open enrol their students to any public school and have the state stipend follow the student to the next school. Generally, there are about 5 public school districts within a half-hour distance, and this does create competition, with schools advertising in neighboring districts with television, billboard, and radio ads. Your stated belief, as I interpret it, is that the priority of public schools is to protect their monopoly. What is the priority for a for-profit school? What is the priority for a religious school?

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Rade
What makes universities so special that they're not impacted by supply and demand?
Is it cheaper to buy a limited-edition car or a model off the lot? Mass production lowers the overall cost of the product, and that lower cost gets passed on to the consumer. In this case, a more educated workforce is a direct benefit to American businesses, who are replacing unskilled labor with automation at breakneck speed.

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Rade
>how good your state test averages would look if you only allowed select kids in your school.
Great, if the public school is the best school around then everyone will use their vouchers at the public schools. I don't understand how this is even an argument? Are you worried that parents are so stupid that they can't tell whether a school is shit or not? Surely some will make a bad decision but I have a hard time believing it could possibly be worse than monopolies.
Do you believe private schools are better because they provide superior education or because private schools do not have to admit historically disadvantaged populations like the financially poor, those with special needs, and those with behavior problems?

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Rade
Again, the private schools must meet the same education standards as the public schools. So this idea of getting "religious indoctrination in lieu of education" is impossible. At worst you'd get religious indoctrination *and* education. Again, the best schools at least in my area are Catholic schools. Why shouldn't a poor Baptist/Methodist/Atheist with a bad public school be able to take their voucher to the best school in the area?
Are you active in the PTA or the school board? Rather than supporting religious institutions with public funds, wouldn't it make more sense to improve the public school?

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Rade
>We need a single payer system like Canada, Australia, Western European nations.
The US has the best healthcare in the world, bar none. Just try googling "world's best cancer hospital" or "world's best children's hospital." They're virtually all in the US. And for people in the area of that hospital... that's just the hospital they go to because it's local. If you live in Canada, Australia, or Western Europe and you have any money you'll come to the US for health care for anything serious.
Are you conflating "health care system" with "health care providers?" My gastroenterologist is pretty good, but you could install a kitchen for what he charges. Do you think that people who cannot afford that should be allowed to fall through the butt-cracks of our health care system? (Gastroenterologist/butt-crack. Did you get it? I made a funny.)

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Rade
The US also subsidizes everyone else's healthcare, because we provide the profit motive for virtually all medical research. Without us the entire world's healthcare technology would stagnate. The vast majority of the poor health stats relative to the rest of the first world has more to do with culture than the cost of going to a doctor. The US has some of the highest obesity levels in the world. Of course we die earlier. The US FDA gave us the bought and paid for marketing for the agriculture industry it called the food pyramid which told everyone to eat a pound of bread every day. Lo and behold we're all dying of heart disease and diabetes. Our infant mortality rates are also largely related to cultural issues like obesity.
Are you using this to help support your claim that our healthcare [providers] are great but American culture is stupid? I'd buy that, although I don't think it digresses from our talk about the health care system.

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Rade
You don't need to artificially "encourage" anyone to go into medicine. That's what wages are for. Wages for doctors are incredibly high. People are being kept out of med school by the AMA specifically to keep wages high.
I do think there might be merit to this statement about the AMA choking off the supply of doctors, but I fundamentally disagree with you on your next claim

Quote
Rade
I feel like you weren't listening when I said any school that accepts vouchers has to meet the same education standards as the public schools. So this is a non-existent problem.
Some states do allow vouchers, but they do not require these private/religious schools to accept ALL students and meet universal educational standards. This is (note present-tense) an existing problem until your proposed accountability piece is enacted.

Quote
Rade
>That said, if you want political stability, you have to provide economic stability. Even the ancient Romans knew that if you remove the bread and circuses, the wealthy would lose everything when the lower class revolts.

Central planning and concentrating power is a sure-fire way to bring about political instability. We see this in the US in microcosms all the time. NSA wiretaps are okay as long as "my guy" is the President. Then as soon as the "other team" is spying on everyone it's a problem. Socialism and central planning only works if you reasonably believe that people will always elect benevolent people and will never be duped, which is obviously foolish. How much *more* power do you want to give Trump? The free market system has led to the greatest improvements in the living standards of the poor in the history of the world. The only cases in recorded history where people have escaped grinding poverty are where they've had capitalism and largely free trade. If you want to know where people are worst off, it's exactly the societies that depart from that.
There are some wonderful things that the free market has done. For instance, I like my car. I also like that Henry Ford had the philosophy that his own workers should be able to afford his cars. But the regulated world tried to make up for a lack of benevolent free market capitalists, and so I can be reasonably sure that my beef isn't made from assort cat parts (FDA labeling), that my water is probably safe to drink (EPA), and that my power company won't unjustly deprive me of power as a means to force me out of the house I own. Do I trust government officials of either party? No, but government officials have a measure of accountability in the electoral process that unregulated private corporations do not. Personally, I don't want fertilizers like hog manure or herbicides like Roundup to end up in my drinking water. Without regulations, I cannot hold those farmers accountable, for their markets are around the globe, not their neighbors, and that is true for most major companies.
How would you propose protecting people from the unscrupulous? Do you advocate everyone taking matters into their own hands?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2017 03:48PM by Quixotic.
Subject Author Posted

Meet a liberal day. (the issues only).

physics May 02, 2017 09:39AM

Re: Meet a liberal day. (the issues only).

Rade May 20, 2017 12:06PM

Re: Meet a liberal day. (the issues only).

Quixotic May 22, 2017 04:55PM

Re: Meet a liberal day. (the issues only).

Rade May 22, 2017 08:41PM

I am curious about your underlying assumptions.

Quixotic May 23, 2017 03:44PM

Re: I am curious about your underlying assumptions.

Rade May 24, 2017 04:59AM

To be fair

Kstatida May 21, 2017 02:35AM

Read _Dark Money_

Quixotic May 14, 2017 05:14PM

You're right about abortion. We also need infanticide clinics.

Rhyaldrin May 04, 2017 03:55PM

Hah (n/t)

TJHuron May 06, 2017 03:51AM

That's a good way, I also propose an enhancement

Kstatida May 04, 2017 10:00PM

Re: Meet a liberal day. (the issues only).

Balrahd May 03, 2017 10:04AM

my manifesto. txt

Isildur(VIP) May 10, 2017 07:42AM

As a citizen of country with VAT, I'm obliged to say

Kstatida May 10, 2017 08:21AM

Re: As a citizen of country with VAT, I'm obliged to say

Isildur(VIP) May 10, 2017 09:40AM

Re: As a citizen of country with VAT, I'm obliged to say

Kstatida May 10, 2017 10:12PM

some observations about this: txt

Isildur(VIP) May 10, 2017 07:52AM

we definitely need more death...ahem...estate taxes.

The Forsaken(VIP) May 03, 2017 12:52PM

Re: Meet a liberal day. (the issues only).

Jib May 03, 2017 10:45AM

Re: Meet a liberal day. (the issues only).

Balrahd May 03, 2017 11:13AM

Gotcha.

Jib May 03, 2017 12:12PM

Filing separately only makes the marriage penalty worse

zannon May 04, 2017 02:26AM

There can be a marriage penalty

zannon May 03, 2017 11:04AM

Taxes are a tough thing to fix

zannon May 03, 2017 10:13AM

Re: Child credit is capped but there is a floor of $600

Balrahd May 03, 2017 11:05AM

Re: Trump tax plan

Jib May 03, 2017 12:05PM

I hate labels.

Jib May 02, 2017 10:24PM

Publically funded religious schools are unconstitutional

physics May 03, 2017 03:02AM

debatable. txt

Isildur(VIP) May 04, 2017 12:57PM

Call it a private school tax credit and let me decide what to do with it.

Jib May 03, 2017 07:56AM

It's not the public-ness of the school that is the problem

starbright May 03, 2017 11:04AM

Re: It's not the public-ness of the school that is the problem

Balrahd May 04, 2017 12:39AM

It's not class sizes, it's ability diversity and capacity for handling student questions

starbright May 04, 2017 02:35AM

Re: It's not class sizes, it's ability diversity and capacity for handling student questions

Balrahd May 04, 2017 10:24AM

I think, encourage what they are interested in.

Jib May 04, 2017 12:18PM

Yeah, actually you're right that most pursuits have an unequal talent distribution

starbright May 04, 2017 11:18AM

I don't really know about U.S., do you have academic contests or something?

Kstatida May 04, 2017 11:14AM

No. Everyone needs a participation prize. We don't want kids to feel bad about losing.

Jib May 04, 2017 12:21PM

^ recommended by Lenin to read and think on

Kstatida May 04, 2017 12:56AM

Re: recommended by Lenin

Murphy May 04, 2017 06:19AM

#4 is most important to me

PaulO May 03, 2017 06:58PM

I agree.

Jib May 03, 2017 12:33PM

Interesting correlations with schooling outcomes

starbright May 03, 2017 11:45PM

we need mo' money for dem programs. (n/t)

Rhyaldrin May 04, 2017 12:00AM

Re: we need mo' money for dem programs.

Kstatida May 04, 2017 12:51AM

gibs me dat. (n/t)

Rhyaldrin May 04, 2017 01:07AM

It's equalization that makes public schools bad

Kstatida May 03, 2017 08:05AM

Yep, exactly.

Jib May 03, 2017 08:20AM

That's interesting

Kstatida May 03, 2017 08:22AM

The argument is, that educating them is better than having masses of uneducated kids growing up into masses of uneducated, poor adults.

Jib May 03, 2017 08:35AM

So they're not exactly illegal

Kstatida May 03, 2017 08:37AM

Something like that.

Jib May 03, 2017 08:44AM

Hi. Meet a right-leaning anarchist total-isolationist traditionalist.

PaulO May 02, 2017 12:28PM

not to trumpet late stage capitalism, but, it applies here

The Forsaken(VIP) May 03, 2017 05:40AM

The problem with cronyism

PaulO May 03, 2017 06:45PM

The liberal economic dream.

physics May 02, 2017 01:26PM

Women's liberation is the reason for wage stagnation, not greedy rich people

Rade May 22, 2017 06:23PM

Because we are a country of Wealth worshippers

ORB May 03, 2017 04:53AM

This wall of text is offensive.

Rhyaldrin May 03, 2017 07:29PM

Buy local, even if it is more expensive. (n/t)

PaulO May 03, 2017 06:47PM

That's the rule I live by. My wife hates me for this

Kstatida May 03, 2017 11:08PM

Yeah agree that there is an unwarranted worship of the wealthy

starbright May 03, 2017 10:44AM

Funnily enough

Kstatida May 03, 2017 05:04AM

liberal economic lies vs. conservative economic lies

PaulO May 02, 2017 04:15PM

Re: The liberal economic dream.

Jib May 02, 2017 01:57PM

As another liberal agree with most of your points

starbright May 02, 2017 12:09PM



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